I see. CM-400 is much smaller than YJ-12. Maybe I was wrong to call YJ-12 its domestic equivalent.
Chinese air to ground weapons (missiles, PGMs, etc)
- Thread starter AssassinsMace
- Start date
lcloo
Captain
The 2 missiles on displayed are same model and same size but at different angle from the camera. The cause of the "size difference" is due to wide angle lens was choosen.
Wide angle camera lens are famous for causing optical distortions.
by78
General
The two missiles aren't exactly the same. The seekers are different.
lcloo
Captain
Yes, you are right, I didn't notice that.
Does China have a air-launched supersonic cruise missile in service? Something that can be carried by fighters. Aka similar to the Brahmos? YJ-91 and 83 seems to be too slow and less effective in anti-ship role.
Air to ground/ship, supersonic, cruise missile just YJ-91 and YJ-12. I don't think PLA bought the HD-1. HD-1 also looks like a half baked project designed mostly to attract investor money but PLA didn't bite.
YJ-91 and YJ-12 are both mach 3+ capable at terminal and mach 1+ during cruise. Brahmos is similar albeit much larger and the air to ground Brahmos-A missile can only be carried by one platform in India, the Su-30MKI. The Brahmos NG is a work in progress.
Multiple PLAAF and PLANAF platforms can carry YJ-91 while YJ-12 air launched can only be carried by H-6.
As for a more macro comparison since you are talking about Brahmos, we should note that China was offered the Oniks/Yakhont missile which the Brahmos is and rejected it back in the 1990s. It is not some amazing missile, frankly a subsonic stealthy cruise missile would be much more effective than something like Brahmos/Oniks/YJ-12.
Hence why China has hypersonic missiles for air to ground/ship serving as its top tier anti-group/ship weapons. These include ground, ship, air, and possibly space (Chinese FOBS platform was observed by USA on multiple occassions launching payloads) launched hypersonic glide and MaRV based anti-ground/ship weapons. With all the test flights of at least three different types of engines that power hypersonic craft since 5 years ago at least, HCM should honestly be included in the list. Afterall, HGV is more difficult in every other way apart from powerplant than HCM and faster too. So many test flights of rotating detonation engines, combined cycle engine types and scramjets whereas India's only just started ground testing of scramjets and managed to fire for less than a minute in lab conditions.
Not only this but it should be noted that ISR, EW - ECM & ECCM, targeting network, guidance network, resilience of all that etc are all very important and arguably more so than the missile itself when comparing relatively similar missiles. In these fields India is not only quite a laggard, it is one of the worst performing overall e.g. it can be said Canada has better ISR and electronic capabilities than India. Russia certainly has and Oniks isn't some magic bullet to solve even a midget problem. India using Brahmos on China would invite 100x the volume of just similar performance missiles not to mention the 1000x "lesser" missiles and another tier of weaponry available to China now that India barely has on planning PPTs. That's not even going into production capability, ISR, EW and so on.
But going back to a simple platform to platform comparison, China's closest sort of "similar" missile to Brahmos is indeed the YJ-12 and it's hard to compare beyond basic performance metrics available online since their respective electronic capabilities are not well known. We can judge China's academic, industrial and electronic/software/computing industries against India's.
The difference is Brahmos is like the prized Ferrari in India's garage whereas YJ-12 is like the scooter in China's... meanwhile in China's garage, she's got a few Bugattis, tanks, tractors, F1 racer and your basic bitch Ferrari too. In far greater numbers as well.
As for anti-ground, well China's got the second largest airforce in the world for pounding ground. There's not much need for lots of expensive new anti ground supersonic cruise missiles when China has two and many alternative options to choose from. The largest army and ground forces by a mile. The largest artillery force including guided artillery by 10 miles and more production capability than rest of world combined. Indian manufacturing in speed and quality is only promoted by Jai Hinds. Do it in India and take a look how miserably bad both speed and quality of everything is that is Indian. That's out of things which aren't even pure vaporware bs.
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BTW, I was not trying to compare India vs China when I talked about the Brahmos. I just notice a capability gap and I find it significant enough to notice. The fact that many countries including India and Russia have air launched long range supersonic cruise missiles that can be carried by fighters. But China somehow does not. They have more than 1200 large fighters now that can carry a big missile under the belly. So, they should add that capability for a better anti-shipping role. YJ-12 is smaller than the Brahmos, so, flankers should easily be able to carry it. But somehow, they can't. That seems like an easy capability to add that will have a significant impact.
lcloo
Captain
J16 is more capable than SU-30MKI, so in theory if SU-30MKI can carry Bramos missiles, so can J16, so it is either (1) PLAAF does not want to show true capability of J16, or (2) they chose not to equip Bramos sized missile on J16 and other Flankers despite having the technology to do it.
The difference between both countries is that China has a large fleet of strike aircraft from JH7, SU-30MKK/MK2, J16. H6K/J/L that can carry various sizes of air to ground munition. They will just let air superiority fighters do what they are good at doing, and let the strike jets do the ground pounding.
In future we might see J11A/B/S convert to strike roles with large size air to ground missiles when they are deemed ineffective against enemy air superiority fighters and also when there is sufficient number of J20, J35( and J31?) and possible introduction of a next generation of air to air fighters after 2030.
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YJ-12 is a supersonic, cruise (air breathing aka combustion, engine powered) missile that can be air launched by H-6. As for why other smaller platforms than H-6 don't carry it, it's probably because it's not ideal. India carrying Brahmos-A on the belly of Su-30MKI is doable but far from ideal for Su-30MKI. PLAAF might have higher standards? Not to deplete the performance of their fighter aircraft by carrying a gigantic YJ-12 missile.
H-6 can carry at least 4 YJ-12 and perhaps be able to give each one more kinetic energy than a J-10 carrying a single YJ-12 or even WS-10A powered J-16 carrying a single YJ-12. The H-6 is a far more suitable platform to do this on than a J-16. More range too than a J-16. You should realise that a J-16 gets weighed down significantly by lugging around such a massive missile like Brahmos or YJ-12.
As for capability gap. The USAF has zero air launched, supersonic cruise missiles in its inventory when China has YJ-91 and YJ-12. Does that mean they have a capability gap overall? No. It means they operate and fight slightly differently with different strengths and strategies on making their strengths effective and efficacious. Same with China except China actually has two air launched supersonic cruise missiles whereas India has just the Brahmos-A.
PLAAF focuses its fighters on air superiority since its ground forces are so bloated and artillery forces are simply ridiculous in size and capability. Longest ranged rocket artillery, guided rocket artillery, shells of every kind, guidance using every airborne platform available to man (one of the first to use small drones for target cuing with guided artillery shells and CEC). We're not even going into guided PLARF.
Capability gap with India doesn't exist -> YJ-12 exists and while no fighter carries it, YJ-12 carried by H-6 flies faster possibly higher too than Brahmos-A weighing down the Su-30MKI and pinning its legs too. After all, J-16 has more power engines WS-10A than Al-31 series in Su-30MKI but MKI does have canards which may help with lift.
You've forgotten to add the many,many tens of thousands of smaller drones used as part of PLAGF and possibly over a thousand MALE UAV dedicated for strike roles of which India produces barely 1 model of and imports a token laughable double digit number of US MALE UAV.
China can use just their arsenal of MALE UAVs and have a more effective and arguably more efficacious air to ground capability than India's entire air to ground inventory which consists of Jaguars, some assorted fighters performing secondary air to ground and their MKI.
China has more CH-3 to CH-6 MALE UAVs than India has drones including quadcopters in service. It's by far India's most signficant and obvious capability gap not only with China but with any modern armed force. They don't even manufacture their own quadcopter from beginning to end and all components.