Chinese air to air missiles

Blitzo

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But it's exactly that, CEC - i.e. normal mid-late 2020s air combat (relevant even now - but for parts of overall fleets only). It isn't trucking per se, and it doesn't let non-LO airframes to perform as ones.

It's a normal networked air combat.

So, are you suggesting that the idea of A2A missile trucks is to allow non-LO airframes to perform as LO airframes?

I don't think I've ever heard that be the case and I'm curious where you've seen that specific qualifier be added before -- the role of A2A missile trucks as I understand it is to enable them to contribute additional A2A weapons to an air battle to try and fulfill the given mission.
Obviously it would be nice if the non LO airframe as a missile truck could be more survivable (which can be attained through a variety of ways, including but not limited to fielding longer ranged AAMs than what the opfor of the day has) -- but filling that role doesn't necessitate it.

Or putting it another way, a PLA Flanker carrying a load of PL-15s against an enemy whose fighters are only equipped with AIM-120As is still as much of a missile truck, if it were against an enemy fielding more capable fighters who are equipped with AIM-120Ds.


There's no particular threshold of survivability that an aircraft needs to be considered a "missile truck". More survivability is always good, but that's about it.




I do not understand. J-11BG as a dedicated ASF should have same priotity as J-16 multi-role no? Could it be it lack certain capability J-16 has making PL-15 less useful?

You're on the right track, think a few more steps ahead and you'll probably in the general correct direction.
 

Gloire_bb

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So, are you suggesting that the idea of A2A missile trucks is to allow non-LO airframes to perform as LO airframes?
Ah, I wrote unclearly. PL-15 on 2020s battlefield doesn't let(force?) fighter to perform missile truck duty.
I.e. both non-lo and lo fighters will be stand-alone fighters themselves, with... let's call it "side pass" ability to go hot/cold at will by passing guidance(or at least SA picture) to buddies around.

'Missile truck' in the end specifically means an aircraft with significant storage of ammo for use of planes operating forward, but which doesn't contribute to fight otherwise.
Flanker airframe arguably is well-positioned to do this exact duty - but PL-15 isn't this sort of a weapon. I.e. in this missile truck/forward pass combination just doesn't bring added value.
PL-17 - perhaps.
Or putting it another way, a PLA Flanker carrying a load of PL-15s against an enemy whose fighters are only equipped with AIM-120As is still as much of a missile truck, if it were against an enemy fielding more capable fighters who are equipped with AIM-120Ds.
PL-15-armed Flanker against aim-120a is still a normal fighter, just busy bullying the opponent through superior reach.
To be fair, that's exactly what flanker airframe was always meant to do in the first place.
 

Blitzo

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Ah, I wrote unclearly. PL-15 on 2020s battlefield doesn't let(force?) fighter to perform missile truck duty.
I.e. both non-lo and lo fighters will be stand-alone fighters themselves, with... let's call it "side pass" ability to go hot/cold at will by passing guidance(or at least SA picture) to buddies around.

'Missile truck' in the end specifically means an aircraft with significant storage of ammo for use of planes operating forward, but which doesn't contribute to fight otherwise.
Flanker airframe arguably is well-positioned to do this exact duty - but PL-15 isn't this sort of a weapon. I.e. in this missile truck/forward pass combination just doesn't bring added value.
PL-17 - perhaps.

PL-15-armed Flanker against aim-120a is still a normal fighter, just busy bullying the opponent through superior reach.
To be fair, that's exactly what flanker airframe was always meant to do in the first place.

What you are describing as a missile truck is absolutely something that the PL-15 can do, even if it is facing an enemy with equally or similar potent weapons like AIM-120D.

The role of a missile truck in that context is still to bring more A2A munitions to the fight, the guidance of which will be supported by friendly offboard assets (including more forward operating fighters, including VLO fighters). They do not necessarily have to get any closer than distances to make use of their BVR capabilities. In the modern context, the missile truck will of course still be vulnerable to enemy capabilities especially if they have high end BVR and VLO of their own, but that's just the price of doing business in the modern A2A era.
 

Gloire_bb

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What you are describing as a missile truck is absolutely something that the PL-15 can do, even if it is facing an enemy with equally or similar potent weapons like AIM-120D.
it doesn't - because it won't let you have any advantage in number of missiles. This is impossible if fighters enter the engagement (and engage in a normal sequence), and they do (and in fact launch at targets they see, either on their own or through datalinks). You simply bring more fighters - this isn't trucking. Pure fighter force(lo and non-lo mix, doesn't matter) can be just as interlinked, it's the basis of fighter tactics for decades by now.

More survivable LO fighters will be doing the same thing with more or less the same numbers of weapons - just somewhat closer. x-band stealth supported by offboard EW is ultimately superior survivability solution to good onboard EW (and Chinese 4th gen fighters don't really overly specialize in it either).
In the modern context, the missile truck will of course still be vulnerable to enemy capabilities especially if they have high end BVR and VLO of their own, but that's just the price of doing business in the modern A2A era.
To be considered an actual truck - "trucker" must bring into the fight ammunition which otherwise wouldn't be in it (very long range missiles with significant overmatch over normal ones). Preferably - in numbers unachievable by just adding some more fighters with their normal OFCA loadouts.
Because otherwise it isn't truck, it's just a normal fighter - there is no "delivery" in their job. Or, alternatively, every fighter in the air with at least one missile is a truck - and then the term loses any remaining sense.

Idea of missile truck is to bring more into the force, by specifically distributing roles: some fighters(LO, better - VLO) do the sensing/guidance part, some take disproportionate amounts of A2A weight(size of munitions, number of munitions) - which would've made them extremely vulnerable otherwise. "Truck" is a survivability/capability sacrifice for the common goal. But because they in principle operate outside of the reach of OPFOR - they can do it nonetheless.
Net result is that such a distributed force is meant to have more missiles than 'all fighter' one, in the best case scenario - deadlier missiles better supported through the flight till going active.
 

Blitzo

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it doesn't - because it won't let you have any advantage in number of missiles. This is impossible if fighters enter the engagement (and engage in a normal sequence), and they do (and in fact launch at targets they see, either on their own or through datalinks). You simply bring more fighters - this isn't trucking. Pure fighter force(lo and non-lo mix, doesn't matter) can be just as interlinked, it's the basis of fighter tactics for decades by now.

This entirely depends on the mission profile of the missile trucks in question.
Whether they “engage” the enemy or not entirely depends on their ingress and egress before and after they launch their missiles respectively.

Flankers with a heavy BVRAAM load for example can remain many hundreds of kms behind the anticipated line of engagement where your more VLO aircraft operate, and then as the situational awareness picture develops or if your forward VLO aircraft require it, your missile truck Flankers can move forwards to launch their BVRAAMs at the opfor targets that your networked friendly aircraft designate and then immediately get out of dodge the moment they launch their weapons.

I consider that very much a missile truck role and it doesn’t necessitate your missile truck platform to have 400km BVRAAMs or be invulnerable to enemy attack as part of their mission.



More survivable LO fighters will be doing the same thing with more or less the same numbers of weapons - just somewhat closer. x-band stealth supported by offboard EW is ultimately superior survivability solution to good onboard EW (and Chinese 4th gen fighters don't really overly specialize in it either).

To be considered an actual truck - "trucker" must bring into the fight ammunition which otherwise wouldn't be in it (very long range missiles with significant overmatch over normal ones). Preferably - in numbers unachievable by just adding some more fighters with their normal OFCA loadouts.
Because otherwise it isn't truck, it's just a normal fighter - there is no "delivery" in their job. Or, alternatively, every fighter in the air with at least one missile is a truck - and then the term loses any remaining sense.

Idea of missile truck is to bring more into the force, by specifically distributing roles: some fighters(LO, better - VLO) do the sensing/guidance part, some take disproportionate amounts of A2A weight(size of munitions, number of munitions) - which would've made them extremely vulnerable otherwise. "Truck" is a survivability/capability sacrifice for the common goal. But because they in principle operate outside of the reach of OPFOR - they can do it nonetheless.
Net result is that such a distributed force is meant to have more missiles than 'all fighter' one, in the best case scenario - deadlier missiles better supported through the flight till going active.

You almost had it lol.

Yes, every fighter in the air with at least one missile by definition can be considered a missile truck, and I think that is an excellent way of viewing it.

In a given engagement, it is the mission profile of the fighter with one or more missiles that should primarily determines whether it is a missile truck or not, rather than armament alone.

I view a missile truck as an aircraft which does not engage the enemy fighters in a direct fashion but instead loiter behind the anticipated line of engagement and dash forwards occasionally to provide support to one’s own fighters that are engaged, in the form of moving forwards to launching missiles networked and supported by friendly assets, and to immediately egress after launching its payload.
In other words, any fighter whose role is to carry one or more missiles while loitering, and whose mission is essentially limited to dashing forwards to launch its missiles at the enemy and immediately running away to get out of there, can fulfill the role of a missile truck.


I have never seen any definition of a missile truck that necessitated it to carry a weapon that particularly outranged the enemy. Obviously it would be nice if it had a weapon with such capabilities, but the lack of such a weapon that outranged the enemy does not mean a platform cannot be a missile truck. Instead, it is the mission profile which is the common denominator for this role.
 

Gloire_bb

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Flankers with a heavy BVRAAM load for example can remain many hundreds of kms behind the anticipated line of engagement where your more VLO aircraft operate, and then as the situational awareness picture develops or if your forward VLO aircraft require it, your missile truck Flankers can move forwards to launch their BVRAAMs at the opfor targets that your networked friendly aircraft designate and then immediately get out of dodge the moment they launch their weapons.
Flanker loitering, say, 200 km behind the launch point will take several (up to ~10, depending on fuel situation - and indeed on how heavily loaded they are) minutes to just get to the launch point - and after that the missile flight time on top(upto ~3.5-4 min for MRAAM launched at extreme ranges; 1-1.5 min for ranges ) This is a lot of time for air combat - most fighters don't even have this much time for air combat in their flight profiles.

IMHO, those are reinforcements loitering away from the battlefield.

Yes, every fighter in the air with at least one missile by definition can be considered a missile truck, and I think that is an excellent way of viewing it.
Ok, I understood your point. But IMHO, it's just a normal missile-armed fighter.
I always considered "truck" referring to a fighter loaded with long-range munitions (MRAAMS, preferably - LRAAMs) beyond (1)weight/drag and (2)WVR ratio optimums.
I have never seen any definition of a missile truck that necessitated it to carry a weapon that particularly outranged the enemy. Obviously it would be nice if it had a weapon with such capabilities, but the lack of such a weapon that outranged the enemy does not mean a platform cannot be a missile truck. Instead, it is the mission profile which is the common denominator for this role.
To be fair, I don't remember a lot of true definitions for this term at all - only publications referring to a broad concept the reader is expected to understand based on his common sense; apparently, that's the reason behind my disagreement. The distributed order you refer to does indeed make perfect sense, I simply didn't consider it trucking in the first place. Just networked combat with echelons based on survivability.
 

Deino

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I'm not sure, but it could be a PL-15 or PL-12 without fins attached.


Indeed and option, but IMO for a PL-15 it looks wider and eve more the PL-15 is usually attached to the launch rail/pylon adaptor, whereas here there seems to be a gap.

1687240793630.jpeg
 

Blitzo

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Indeed and option, but IMO for a PL-15 it looks wider and eve more the PL-15 is usually attached to the launch rail/pylon adaptor, whereas here there seems to be a gap.

View attachment 114735

I do agree, there is a possible chance it is something new by circumstantial indicators.

That said, the deliberate pixelation means we can't rule out that it may be an existing BVRAAM without fins.
If there are additional rumours from credible individuals that give new information, that would change things of course.

Edit: one possibility is that it may not be a AAM, but could be an ARM instead
 
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