China's transport, tanker & heavy lift aircraft

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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Y-9 is indeed outdated, and is more of a stop-gap solution. Y-30 has been forever on displays. Lack of a suitable engine and lower priority are likely the reasons why. WS-20 might just be the answer for a twin turbofan medium transporter.

I think Y-9 was a fine, if not important project; it was the right balance of modernized capability, maturity/minimal risk, that provided an airframe that has ended up being vital to a large number of special mission aircraft.
A larger, more modern medium transporter would likely have taken more time and risk, all while forcing the PLA to continue to soldier on with Y-8 variants on the interim (including for special mission aircraft).

After all, the C-130J is still running quite strong.


As far as priority goes, I think a new medium transport like Y-30 is quite low in the PLA's priorities, and rightly so.
It would be nice to have, but with Y-20 and Y-9 production both running strong, it is not a necessity or a must have.
 

Atomicfrog

Major
Registered Member
I think Y-9 was a fine, if not important project; it was the right balance of modernized capability, maturity/minimal risk, that provided an airframe that has ended up being vital to a large number of special mission aircraft.
A larger, more modern medium transporter would likely have taken more time and risk, all while forcing the PLA to continue to soldier on with Y-8 variants on the interim (including for special mission aircraft).

After all, the C-130J is still running quite strong.


As far as priority goes, I think a new medium transport like Y-30 is quite low in the PLA's priorities, and rightly so.
It would be nice to have, but with Y-20 and Y-9 production both running strong, it is not a necessity or a must have.
The big question is how much capacity a new airframe will bring. If it's the same size to fill the task of the Y-9, it will be marginal. So it's why the C-130 and Y-9 are still going strong. Y-9 was a nice upgrade of Y-8.

If you up the size then you have more capacity but with an aircraft with a bigger logistic footprint and it's not sure that it will fill all the task of the Y-9 because of a bigger size. Even with the Y-30 the risk is that you still need the Y-9...
 

Richard Santos

Captain
Registered Member
Exactly my point! What was missed during the original design that such a major redesign is necessary? :oops:
Changes probably reflect concern with spray characteristics during landing and take off.

those things are difficult to model numerically or capture with smaller scale models.

Looking back on history of seaplane designs, even towards the end of the period when sea planes were popular for military and civilian use in the late 1950s, when companies like Martin had a lot of experience, Major design changed still occurs after prototype has flown to eliminate adverse spray characteristics and improve high speed or rough water handing on water surface.
 

Atomicfrog

Major
Registered Member
Changes probably reflect concern with spray characteristics during landing and take off.

those things are difficult to model numerically or capture with smaller scale models.

Looking back on history of seaplane designs, even towards the end of the period when sea planes were popular for military and civilian use in the late 1950s, when companies like Martin had a lot of experience, Major design changed still occurs after prototype has flown to eliminate adverse spray characteristics and improve high speed or rough water handing on water surface.
Quite a big remodeling, front fuselage reconfigured... Did they change the wings, actuator pylons look way bigger than before, maybe a new flap design ?
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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On the matter of PLA Transport/Tanker aircraft -- one thing that I've been consistently thought was a good idea, was for all new Y-20Bs once they enter mass production, to be capable of doubling up as tanker aircraft by having removable wingtip air refuelling pods and the necessary plumbing to carry out air refuelling.
Similar to how A400Ms are all designed with air refuelling compatibility as standard.

The PLA's lack of large tanker aircraft is obviously a major deficiency that everyone has noted, and they are obviously going to rectify this by building Y-20Us (based on Y-20A and Y-20B), and that is important, as Y-20U aircraft will be dedicated tankers with sealed ramps, three air refeulling positions (including a central fuselage position), and likely with an internal cargo hold redesigned to permanently be capable of carrying more fuel.

However, annual induction of Y-20U airframes will be limited by overall Y-20 airframe production, and the PLA will still need a large fleet of standard transport Y-20s that will put a ceiling on how many Y-20U tankers could be built over its lifetime.

But the vanilla Y-20 should have an internal fuel capacity similar or greater than that of Il-76, and I think a standard non-tanker Y-20 would make a good tanker on its own, certainly with an internal fuel capacity multiple that of a standard H-6U, and approaching that of the KC-46/KC-135.


The problem with Chinese tanker capability in the future is fleet size and availability. It will take time for a sizable, dedicated fleet of Y-20U to enter service and even then they will be high value assets that an opfor will seek to target and destroy.
But if every Y-20B also has the ability to carry a refuelling pod on each wing, it will not only significantly enhance the refuelling capacity of the air force overall, but also make the overall air refuelling fleet more resilient to attrition. Like the A400M, the pods can be easily removable and attached only when needed, and the only other modifications to a standard Y-20B will be a side fuselage camera on each side and some rewiring and software to allow the copilot to monitor the two refuelling drogues during operation.

Otherwise, during standard airlift operations the normal Y-20 fleet does not to be equipped with refuelling pods, but for operations or conflicts where air refuelling is important, they will be able to equip themselves with refuelling pods while also retaining the internal cargo bay for airlift.



Annually, a production ratio of 3:1 Y-20 between standard transport/tanker variant airframes to dedicated tanker variant airframes could prove sustainable in the long run.

If some eventual 160 Y-20B airframes are built, then that would be some 120 Y-20B transport/tanker aircraft, with 40 dedicated Y-20BU tanker aircraft.
In a conflict where tankers are in high demand and strategic transport is deemed slightly less important, then the core of those 40 dedicated Y-20BUs could be supported by a large fraction of those Y-20Bs operating in the tanker role. Obviously the Y-20B tanker will have less fuel capacity than a dedicated Y-20BU, but they'll still be fairly capable and able to haul a lot more gas than H-6U, and more importantly it means more tanker airframes are available in general.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
On the matter of PLA Transport/Tanker aircraft -- one thing that I've been consistently thought was a good idea, was for all new Y-20Bs once they enter mass production, to be capable of doubling up as tanker aircraft by having removable wingtip air refuelling pods and the necessary plumbing to carry out air refuelling.
Similar to how A400Ms are all designed with air refuelling compatibility as standard.

The PLA's lack of large tanker aircraft is obviously a major deficiency that everyone has noted, and they are obviously going to rectify this by building Y-20Us (based on Y-20A and Y-20B), and that is important, as Y-20U aircraft will be dedicated tankers with sealed ramps, three air refeulling positions (including a central fuselage position), and likely with an internal cargo hold redesigned to permanently be capable of carrying more fuel.

However, annual induction of Y-20U airframes will be limited by overall Y-20 airframe production, and the PLA will still need a large fleet of standard transport Y-20s that will put a ceiling on how many Y-20U tankers could be built over its lifetime.

But the vanilla Y-20 should have an internal fuel capacity similar or greater than that of Il-76, and I think a standard non-tanker Y-20 would make a good tanker on its own, certainly with an internal fuel capacity multiple that of a standard H-6U, and approaching that of the KC-46/KC-135.


The problem with Chinese tanker capability in the future is fleet size and availability. It will take time for a sizable, dedicated fleet of Y-20U to enter service and even then they will be high value assets that an opfor will seek to target and destroy.
But if every Y-20B also has the ability to carry a refuelling pod on each wing, it will not only significantly enhance the refuelling capacity of the air force overall, but also make the overall air refuelling fleet more resilient to attrition. Like the A400M, the pods can be easily removable and attached only when needed, and the only other modifications to a standard Y-20B will be a side fuselage camera on each side and some rewiring and software to allow the copilot to monitor the two refuelling drogues during operation.

Otherwise, during standard airlift operations the normal Y-20 fleet does not to be equipped with refuelling pods, but for operations or conflicts where air refuelling is important, they will be able to equip themselves with refuelling pods while also retaining the internal cargo bay for airlift.
Would a suitably configured Y-20B airlifter/tanker carry fuel tanks in the bay connecting to the refueling system?
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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Would a suitably configured Y-20B airlifter/tanker carry fuel tanks in the bay connecting to the refueling system?

It would require a bit more plumbing to do so, but yes, palletized removable fuel tanks in the cargo hold could serve as additional fuel tanks to enhance overall transferable fuel for the Y-20B transport/tanker airframe. Of course it would still be a bit less fuel capacity than a dedicated Y-20BU with the internal fuselage and cargo hold fully designed to hold only fuel rather than cargo, but it would still be a very sizeable fuel load.

In terms of fuel capacity, it would look something like this:
Y-20BU dedicated tanker > Y-20B transport/tanker w/ cargo fuel pallets > Y-20B transport/tanker w/ only internal fuel/no cargo fuel pallets >>> H-6U
 

Hub

New Member
Registered Member
On the matter of PLA Transport/Tanker aircraft -- one thing that I've been consistently thought was a good idea, was for all new Y-20Bs once they enter mass production, to be capable of doubling up as tanker aircraft by having removable wingtip air refuelling pods and the necessary plumbing to carry out air refuelling.
Similar to how A400Ms are all designed with air refuelling compatibility as standard.

The PLA's lack of large tanker aircraft is obviously a major deficiency that everyone has noted, and they are obviously going to rectify this by building Y-20Us (based on Y-20A and Y-20B), and that is important, as Y-20U aircraft will be dedicated tankers with sealed ramps, three air refeulling positions (including a central fuselage position), and likely with an internal cargo hold redesigned to permanently be capable of carrying more fuel.

However, annual induction of Y-20U airframes will be limited by overall Y-20 airframe production, and the PLA will still need a large fleet of standard transport Y-20s that will put a ceiling on how many Y-20U tankers could be built over its lifetime.

But the vanilla Y-20 should have an internal fuel capacity similar or greater than that of Il-76, and I think a standard non-tanker Y-20 would make a good tanker on its own, certainly with an internal fuel capacity multiple that of a standard H-6U, and approaching that of the KC-46/KC-135.


The problem with Chinese tanker capability in the future is fleet size and availability. It will take time for a sizable, dedicated fleet of Y-20U to enter service and even then they will be high value assets that an opfor will seek to target and destroy.
But if every Y-20B also has the ability to carry a refuelling pod on each wing, it will not only significantly enhance the refuelling capacity of the air force overall, but also make the overall air refuelling fleet more resilient to attrition. Like the A400M, the pods can be easily removable and attached only when needed, and the only other modifications to a standard Y-20B will be a side fuselage camera on each side and some rewiring and software to allow the copilot to monitor the two refuelling drogues during operation.

Otherwise, during standard airlift operations the normal Y-20 fleet does not to be equipped with refuelling pods, but for operations or conflicts where air refuelling is important, they will be able to equip themselves with refuelling pods while also retaining the internal cargo bay for airlift.



Annually, a production ratio of 3:1 Y-20 between standard transport/tanker variant airframes to dedicated tanker variant airframes could prove sustainable in the long run.

If some eventual 160 Y-20B airframes are built, then that would be some 120 Y-20B transport/tanker aircraft, with 40 dedicated Y-20BU tanker aircraft.
In a conflict where tankers are in high demand and strategic transport is deemed slightly less important, then the core of those 40 dedicated Y-20BUs could be supported by a large fraction of those Y-20Bs operating in the tanker role. Obviously the Y-20B tanker will have less fuel capacity than a dedicated Y-20BU, but they'll still be fairly capable and able to haul a lot more gas than H-6U, and more importantly it means more tanker airframes are available in general.
yep, there are some rumors in Chinese military website, that all J-20B will be a variant of J20U capable.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
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yep, there are some rumors in Chinese military website, that all J-20B will be a variant of J20U capable.


seems to be a typo ... but why should the J-20B require a dedicated Y-20U tanker? IMO all J-20s are already capable to being refuelled by any Y-20U and/or Il-78.
 

Hub

New Member
Registered Member
seems to be a typo ... but why should the J-20B require a dedicated Y-20U tanker? IMO all J-20s are already capable to being refuelled by any Y-20U and/or Il-78.
The original word is “ Y-20B is the Y-20MRTT”.
 
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