China's strategy in Korean peninsula

sanblvd said:

Y

ps.. the anti Chinese hate in Korea is very widespread, its not just those crazy brainwashed religious groups that you think.

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That's because those South Korean has ambition to obtain North Korean territories for their own development and gain. Those hating South Korean idiots are also at risking of getting many Chinese to hate them back. Heck the K-pop culture and economy is hurting right now because of their government insistent to have some THAAD missile defense system base in South Korea (even with some S.K. are against this). They're having a Korean Empire of sort in which they don't have the population to expand into new territories (that being in North Korea).

taxiya said:

To clarify, my post #737 was regarding "mistake for China to unify Vietnam." only.
Regarding unification of Korea, I would say "it is Korean's own business without other (than China) big powers meddling", living with a unified Korea on the side should be alright with China so long as that Korea is friendly.

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You don't need me to educate me on Vietnam history, I am well aware of their historical interaction of Vietnam with China, hating and fearing China is in their genes. However on the other hand do you know the fear Vietnam have for China is the same fear that many Southeast Asia nation have towards Vietnam? Nan-yu (Vietnam) for over 1000 years was only around Hanoi, its only in recent century they expend south which give Vietnam the narrow shape they have now, and who do you think they took this land from? And the nation they took it from, what are their feelings towards Vietnam... hint Cambodia HATE Vietnam, that is also why Cambodia also loves China. Same thing goes for Laos and Thailand.

However my original point still stand with Korea, Korea might hate/fear China less than Vietnam, but Korea in its entire history was even more dominated by China than China dominated Vietnam (especially recent history). Therefore Korea share the same anxiety that Vietnam have over China. And I pointed in my previous reply, South Korean nationalism today is already making revisionist demand on China base on its distorted history. What do you think a unified Korea will do?

When Vietnam was not unified, they didn't know any similar ambition and trouble towards China of the current South Korea is showing towards China today. To think that China can manage a unified Korea is laughably as to think China can mange a unified Vietnam.

But in a alternative history, if Vietnam today is still divide, do you think they would pool their full attention toward being hostile towards? Against each other? Therefore Korea unification is not good for China.

Equation said:

That's because those South Korean has ambition to obtain North Korean territories for their own development and gain. Those hating South Korean idiots are also at risking of getting many Chinese to hate them back. Heck the K-pop culture and economy is hurting right now because of their government insistent to have some THAAD missile defense system base in South Korea (even with some S.K. are against this). They're having a Korean Empire of sort in which they don't have the population to expand into new territories (that being in North Korea).

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Yep you got it, just think, a divided Korea today... should worry more about unification, but South Korea is already making stupid demands on China... the balls and the stupidity they have to do something as stupid as this. What do you think a strong unified Korea will do?

And of course SK don't give a crap about China's objection towards THAAD while they are earns billions from China. And what about NK? They care for China even less, if they did listen to Chain, they would not have develop nukes in the first place. Look how much trouble NK has brought for China?

That means SK and NK both don't give a crap about Chinese interest, do you think somehow a combined strong unified Korea will magically starting to listen to China?

sanblvd said:

You don't need me to educate me on Vietnam history, I am well aware of their historical interaction of Vietnam with China, hating and fearing China is in their genes. However on the other hand do you know the fear Vietnam have for China is the same fear that many Southeast Asia nation have towards Vietnam? Nan-yu (Vietnam) for over 1000 years was only around Hanoi, its only in recent century they expend south which give Vietnam the narrow shape they have now, and who do you think they took this land from? And the nation they took it from, what are their feelings towards Vietnam... hint Cambodia HATE Vietnam, that is also why Cambodia also loves China. Same thing goes for Laos and Thailand.

However my original point still stand with Korea, Korea might hate/fear China less than Vietnam, but Korea in its entire history was even more dominated by China than China dominated Vietnam (especially recent history). Therefore Korea share the same anxiety that Vietnam have over China. And I pointed in my previous reply, South Korean nationalism today is already making revisionist demand on China base on its distorted history. What do you think a unified Korea will do?

When Vietnam was not unified, they didn't know any similar ambition and trouble towards China of the current South Korea is showing towards China today. To think that China can manage a unified Korea is laughably as to think China can mange a unified Vietnam.

But in a alternative history, if Vietnam today is still divide, do you think they would pool their full attention toward being hostile towards? Against each other? Therefore Korea unification is not good for China.

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First off, I was not intended to "educate" anyone, but to present the historical events as a reference. My words was "let US revisit..."

Secondly, I think dragging in more countries' history and feelings towards one another (one against Vietnam for example) will get the discussion even more messy. I disagreed your parallels of Korean matters with Vietnam in my previous post, and I still suggest now not to bring in parallels which may not be relevant.

Thirdly, I believe there is no meaning or usefulness in "what-if" in history.

Lastly, for the sake of debate, I will to go along with your hypothesis of "what if Vietnam is still divided".

Are you suggesting that the only good thing for China is to have all her neighbors and even better countries all over the world being divided and in chaos. Only that will fit China's interest? What kind of interest is that then? I love China being the place of my ancestors, BUT I do not wish my neighbors harming their brothers and sisters just so they don't have time to POSSIBLY think of hurt me. When people do not point me with a knife, I give them the chance of being a friendly neighbor instead of assuming them to be criminals. And I do keep a big stick just in case.

Regarding the hatred (against each other) that you mentioned, they are true. But I have also heard lots of very nasty words of Chinese in the internet against other countries regardless right or wrong of the country in the specific case or subject or event. We should not let this kind of sentiment to dominate the decision and future of countries including China even the noise is there.

Regardless who did what to whom in the past, human must learn to let go and work towards a chance to be good, not act in ill suspicion against each other because of dark past. Otherwise, the bad will be a reality, self proven prophecy.

I know you have heard this two sayings of the Saint Confucius, (not to educate you), let us share it with everyone.

己所不欲勿施于人, One do not treat others in the way one do not want to be treated
君子成人之美, True gentleman help or willing to see other person being fortunate/happy
Yes, I know realpolitik and dirty tricks, but I also know that they only work in short term, not long term. China out survived all other empires to this day is NOT because she outsmarted all others with more dirty tricks, BUT because she had the Saint who guided China for 3000 years with many wisdoms including the two sayings above.

taxiya said:

First off, I was not intended to "educate" anyone, but to present the historical events as a reference. My words was "let US revisit..."

Secondly, I think dragging in more countries' history and feelings towards one another (one against Vietnam for example) will get the discussion even more messy. I disagreed your parallels of Korean matters with Vietnam in my previous post, and I still suggest now not to bring in parallels which may not be relevant.

Thirdly, I believe there is no meaning or usefulness in "what-if" in history.

Lastly, for the sake of debate, I will to go along with your hypothesis of "what if Vietnam is still divided".

Are you suggesting that the only good thing for China is to have all her neighbors and even better countries all over the world being divided and in chaos. Only that will fit China's interest? What kind of interest is that then? I love China being the place of my ancestors, BUT I do not wish my neighbors harming their brothers and sisters just so they don't have time to POSSIBLY think of hurt me. When people do not point me with a knife, I give them the chance of being a friendly neighbor instead of assuming them to be criminals. And I do keep a big stick just in case.

Regarding the hatred (against each other) that you mentioned, they are true. But I have also heard lots of very nasty words of Chinese in the internet against other countries regardless right or wrong of the country in the specific case or subject or event. We should not let this kind of sentiment to dominate the decision and future of countries including China even the noise is there.

Regardless who did what to whom in the past, human must learn to let go and work towards a chance to be good, not act in ill suspicion against each other because of dark past. Otherwise, the bad will be a reality, self proven prophecy.

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No, I'm not at all saying that I want all of China's neighbor to be in war and conflict with each other, not at all. However I am saying for nations that are hostile to Chinese's interest, its in China's interest to keep them weak and divided, for nations such as Vietnam, Korea, India etc... (Russia in the far future)

But nations such as Pakistan, Laos, Nepal, Cambodia etc... who are not hostile to Chinese interest, but are hostile to China's enemy, China should build them up to use it to balance China's other enemies. So you can call me a names or whatever you want, a loser, an insecure person whatever.... but it is what it is, its geopolitics.

Also I think its very admirable that you are arguing from a global peace, nation brotherly love approach.. I would like that to happen, but due to human nature it will never be possible, in this world there can only be leader and followers, no one is right, no one is wrong, there is only power and strength. If this is the case, I want China to be the top dog in Asia instead of US or other nations.

However there is another way for regional peace for China, that is for China's power to be so overwhelming and unchallengable, that none of her neighbors dares to challenge her, this will work because it has world in the past in Sino-centric Asia order and it will work again very soon.

And lastly, I still do think the case for Vietnam really still apply for Korea. And yes I am aware that China is not always right or always kind, but so what? Right and wrong don't matter. Power do.

sanblvd said:

... Right and wrong don't matter. Power do.

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scary, huh?

Jura said:

scary, huh?

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Ask Iraq

sanblvd said:

No, I'm not at all saying that I want all of China's neighbor to be in war and conflict with each other, not at all. However I am saying for nations that are hostile to Chinese's interest, its in China's interest to keep them weak and divided, for nations such as Vietnam, Korea, India etc... (Russia in the far future)
.

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This is getting OT now, so I skip answering the rest of your post except this one because it is closely related to our original debate.

No, I'm not at all saying that I want all of China's neighbor to be in war and conflict with each other, not at all.

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That's good.

However I am saying for nations that are hostile to Chinese's interest, its in China's interest to keep them weak and divided

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I agree with you when "hostile" is the condition.

such as Vietnam, Korea, India etc... (Russia in the far future)

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That is the reason that we disagree. Some of them are NOW not friendly to China and is therefor applicable by your suggestion.

But I disagree with you to act (in divide and weakening) on others in anticipation of their possible future hostility. That way you make a possible friend or friend-to-be-proven to be an enemy, that is self proven prophecy that I mentioned earlier.

In case of south Korea, I don't see it as hostile, the seemingly hostility is steered and stirred up by known factions and outside parties. As of NK, so long as China not acting on behalf of US and SK, where could the hostility come from? History, let's give future a chance.

This will be my last post in this round of this subject. You are welcome to continue if you want.

taxiya said:

That is the reason that we disagree. Some of them are NOW not friendly to China and is therefor applicable by your suggestion.

But I disagree with you to act (in divide and weakening) on others in anticipation of their possible future hostility. That way you make a possible friend or friend-to-be-proven to be an enemy, that is self proven prophecy that I mentioned earlier.

In case of south Korea, I don't see it as hostile, the seemingly hostility is steered and stirred up by known factions and outside parties. As of NK, so long as China not acting on behalf of US and SK, where could the hostility come from? History, let's give future a chance.

This will be my last post in this round of this subject. You are welcome to continue if you want.

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Call it foresight, call it a lesson from history, China's relationship with North Vietnam was one of the closest bilateral relations between any 2 nations in the world, their leaders loved each other like brothers.... but look how easy it all fall apart? The reason it all apart is not China fault or Vietnam's fault, their relations, their hostility is destined by their geopolitics, geography, history etc...

However using your logic, China should have Vietnam to unity and they did, and you can see the result for yourself.

Vietnam wants its own mini China in the South East Asia, but it was not in Chinese's interest for them to have this empire, in fact it it were not for the France invasion of Indo-China, the entire South east Asia would have swollen by the Vietnamese. Why? Because Vietnam are like Chinese, they have imperial ambitions.

I see the same thing for Korean, they also have their own imperial ambitions, and for Korea, there is only 2 direction they can expand, into China or out to Japan.

Its true that China and SK/NK are not overtly hostile with each other, but I pointed out in previous post that the current the individual actions of both Korea are not at all friendly to China, the ridiculous South Korea revisionist nationalism and its history with their THAAD + NK building nuke and missiles while totally ignore Chinese concern is already showing bad signs, just imagine if they are united. And of course you do know a unified Korea will be a nuclear Korea right? With all the problem I just mention that will make it worse.

However I do foresee a future where Chinese power is so overwhelming to the Koreans that like the past admit to became a Chinese vessel like they had done in the past, only then its permitted for them to unify.

sanblvd said:

......I am saying for nations that are hostile to Chinese's interest, its in China's interest to keep them weak and divided, for nations such as Vietnam, Korea, India etc... (Russia in the far future)

But nations such as Pakistan, Laos, Nepal, Cambodia etc... who are not hostile to Chinese interest, but are hostile to China's enemy, China should build them up to use it to balance China's other enemies. So you can call me a names or whatever you want, a loser, an insecure person whatever.... but it is what it is, its geopolitics.

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No friendship is forever. Likewise, no rivalry is forever. Those who are friends today might become bitter enemies tomorrow and vice versa. So I don't think anyone should make strategic decisions based on today's geopolitical conditions. These conditions change in a whim.

On the other had, interests are forever. A giant nation like China or the US, should think about how to foster a future geopolitical environment that potentially encourages friendship and collaboration. China's ambitious One Road One Belt project is actually an excellent example of this type of thinking. Don't be so near-sighted about what is happening today. Think about what could happen 100 years from now and how one can "shape the future".

I know this sounds ambitious and even idealistic. However, superpowers with immense resources should think big.