China's strategy in Afghanistan.

Maula Jatt

Junior Member
Registered Member
China is objectively a net contributor to human progress while so many vassals of a certain country like India, Uganda, etc are net contributors to human misery. Thus any criticism from foreigners is in bad faith if they do not have equal or greater critiques of these countries. Who cares if they judge, do they have the capability to carry out their judgments on China? No. Besides, everyone judges. Why didn't China do business with fascist military dictatorship Indonesia when it was genociding Chinese Indonesians in 1967? Their country their rules right? No.

The actual crime is hypocrisy. You either criticize all for the same action equally or you don't say anything at all. China has always been consistent: general noninterference, but specific calls for peace and moderation for emergency situations. Meanwhile some certain country is supporting xenophobic racist Is.rael and head chopping absolute monarchy Saudi, then criticizing China for so called 'human rights'. That is the distasteful part - hypocrisy. Voting against condemning Nazis and fascists while calling criticism of Is.rael 'antisemitic' is hypocrisy. China calling for peace and moderation from all factions and not doing business with a faction that refuses peace and moderation? Not hypocrisy.

whether a purportedly extreme fundamentalist islamist governing organization with a secured territory snd power base can be ideologically reconciled with not trying to detach traditionally islamic populations from the rule of infidels, and not just infidels, but atheists, which are regarded in islam as the worst of worst and far worse than “people of the book”, ie christians and jews, is yet to be seen.

Taliban will undoubtedly act moderate to secure power and avoid giving foreign military still with a toe hold in Afghanistan a reason to reverse their pull out and reason to interfere in Afghanistan internal power struggle when their attention is still fixed on Afghanistan.

But what they do once international attention on Afghanistan wanes and the Taliban subdued internal competitor to their power is yet to be seen. one could be sure their first and most important goal is not to modernize Afghanistan,
Can athiests rebuild thier country, help them make money by creating win-win situations, not try to export thier ideology to thier country, let em do thier thing, build infrastructure, school, hospitals?

Than athiests can be the best of friends

Humans are just humans, they won't hurt anyone especially a hand that feeds you

No ideology in the world can change this basic human tendency

B- like I mentioned above in post # 192

Any gross abuse that thier neighbors are uncomfortable with "they should come together as a group and demand Taliban to stop a particular gross abuse" in exchange for recognition

Ofcourse you can't change thier whole ideology, they faught for it for decades but in exchange for carrots they can change some extreme abuses
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
Oh, atheists, as in those who don’t believe there are any supernatural beings, certainly existed in the 7th century. It existed since Classical Greek times and through Greek influence extended through much of the Mediterranean world.

Islam recognizes the role that the much earlier monotheistic traditions of Judaism and Christianity played in its own relatively late formation. It recognizes the prophets in the Hebrew Bible as well as Jesus as legitimate prophets whose revelations also came from Allah. It regard Hebrew Bible as less perfect predecessors to its own Koran. In its own perceptual hierarchy Islam is naturally the only perfect and true religion, But Jews and Christians, because they also venerate the Hebrew Old Testament which the Muslims regard as true, were considered to be fellow “people of the book” who ultimately worship the same true god, but just don’t have all the revelations of Muhammad. Polytheists on the other hand, are devil worshiper, While atheists are considered so vile that don’t even worship, In Islamic world view only through worship can obe possibly attain truth. So not worshiping at all is the worst there can be. Worshiping the devil at least gets the mode right if the topic wrong. Being people of the book means one worship the right god. But only through Islam can one worship the right god in the right way.
That there were notions of atheism and rationality among Greek philosophers doesn't make them widespread, and certainly not widespread among backward desert nomads.

As for the rest, it's just a reassertion of what you wrote and does nothing to address my previous counterargument. The "hierarchy" that you give is something of your own concoction and is meaningless to the attitudes of Muslims toward China. Islamic scripture is not full of references to atheists, they're not mentioned at all (because Mohammad didn't encounter them). It's filled with polemics against Jews ("descendants of apes and pigs", etc.), Christians, and pagan Arabs - you know, the people in Mohammad's environment.

State the passages in Quran and hadith that address atheists specifically (spoiler: there are none), and contrast that against the number cursing Jews.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
In case you might not know, Muhammad did extoll his to followers to seek knowledge even as far as going to China.
I've heard that one before. But even in that passage "China" is used to denote remoteness. It certainly had nothing to do with the tribal politics of his day, which is what his followers inherited and base their worldview on even today.
 

Maula Jatt

Junior Member
Registered Member
Can athiests rebuild thier country, help them make money by creating win-win situations, not try to export thier ideology to thier country, let em do thier thing, build infrastructure, school, hospitals?

Than athiests can be the best of friends

Humans are just humans, they won't hurt anyone especially a hand that feeds you

No ideology in the world can change this basic human tendency

B- like I mentioned above in post # 192

Any gross abuse that thier neighbors are uncomfortable with "they should come together as a group and demand Taliban to stop a particular gross abuse" in exchange for recognition

Ofcourse you can't change thier whole ideology, they faught for it for decades but in exchange for carrots they can change some extreme abuses
@FairAndUnbiased , @Richard Santos

Also I believe intrests have a bigger role to play in geopolitics than anything else

Pak had casino, somewhat of a drinking culture with politicians, sports people, millitary known to enjoy drinks, sedactive ad campaigns, affairs of celebrities, pap etc

Same country went through American sponsored radicalization and become more Islamist

Now its slowly, slowly changing back towards liberalization (ideologies are fluid and constantly evolving)

Again look at China of late 60s and China of today, it's SO different

But throughout this time both were very friendly nations

Why be because for some reason thier interests have been naturally (mostly) alliegning for decades, after decades

Yes ideology has a place but if geopolitical interests alliegn, you can have a productive relationship with any country despite Thier ideology
 

Mohsin77

Senior Member
Registered Member
Atheists are not the "worst of the worst" in Islam simply because the concept did not exist in the 7th century.
The concept existed, it just wasn't called "atheism."

As for the "worst of the worst," I think most academics would agree that in the Quran, such concepts are not based on what a person says, it's based on a relative accounting of their actions, and every human (of mature age and sound mind) will be accountable, including Muslims.

Islam's enemies are the groups it struggled against and tried to coopt in its early history: the Jewish tribes in the Arabian Peninsula. Mohammad tried and failed to convert these tribes and the insults and setbacks he suffered at their hands became doctrinally enshrined in the religion
Most of Mohammad's struggle was against the Meccan polytheists. The Jews have also been labelled "the people of the book," which is a very honorable title. Their actions in their own history have been criticized, and they were also criticized in the Bible. But Muslims don't have an exclusive concept of salvation, like Jews/Christians, or any monopoly over Heaven.

...and made them the eternal enemy of the faithful.
The "eternal enemies" of God in the Quran can be grouped in three:
1) Anyone who assumes political dominion over God's creation by rejecting Divine Law
2) Anyone who assumes spiritual dominion over God's creation via intercession based shenanigans
3) Anyone who assumes economic dominion over God's creation via interest-based lending

This 3rd set, by the way, has been criticized the most severely in the Quran, I think. Those engaging in "Riba" (interest based lending), are said to have declared war against God, because of their economic exploitation, which can be argued to be most directly responsible for the suffering of not just humanity, but the entire ecosystem of the planet.

This is because the hated Jews occupy and hold Islamic holy land
Jerusalem was never actually that holy for Muslims. The only "holy land" in the Quran is the Masjid al-Haram in Mecca.

The Muslim-mythology of Jerusalem (which you mentioned) is just another one of those myths that Muslims have told themselves so much that they themselves have started to believe it. It's gone to a point where most Muslims now believe the Al-Aqsa Mosque mentioned in the Quran is the one in Jerusalem, which is ridiculous, because everyone knows that mosque didn't exist at the time of the revelation. The Caliph Umar built that mosque years after the Prophet had already died, when the Muslims captured that territory from Roman Byzantium.

The real reason why Israel is such a sticking point, is because that land is a very strategic piece of real-estate, and has been since the time of the original Crusades. All the mythology that has been built around it came much later, probably after the first Crusades. The strategic/geographic value of that territory is what's important, and it cannot be left in foreign hands, because it cripples lines of communication on land and through the Mediterranean.

Mohammad had barely anything to say about China.
It doesn't mention the region I'm from either, but I'm not complaining, because the audience of the Quran has been clearly defined as all humanity. There's no 'special' group in Islam. Whenever specific groups have been mentioned, they have also been criticized e.g. both the Jews and the Arabs have been criticized in the Quran. Honestly, I think most of Human culture has been criticized in the Quran because of its slavish, exploitative and irrational traditions.

The problem, is that these days, Muslims themselves are guilty of most of the things the Quran criticized. And we are suffering the exact same consequences which we were warned we would suffer if we didn't act right.
 
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Taiban

Junior Member
Registered Member
A good Chinese perspective to read on Afghanistan by Liu Zongyi: "What does the Taliban's coming to power mean to China?"


Liu Zongyi is Secretary-General, China and South Asian Studies Center, Shanghai Institute of International Studies




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Taiban

Junior Member
Registered Member
A good Chinese perspective to read on Afghanistan by Liu Zongyi: "What does the Taliban's coming to power mean to China?"


Liu Zongyi is Secretary-General, China and South Asian Studies Center, Shanghai Institute of International Studies




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Another interesting Chinese perspective (although one month old, Sorry if shared earlier) on Taliban, Afghanistan, ETIM, Taliban's BRI invitation, difference between TTP & Taliban, capability to handle Wakhan corridor but problems of Taliban spread of influence in to Pakistan and CARs
By Qian Feng, director of the Research Department of the National Institute of Strategic Studies of Tsinghua University.


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