China's strategy in Afghanistan.

FairAndUnbiased said:

No need to accommodate the Taliban unless they undisputably win. If the old secular government abandoned by the US starts winning we should back it on the condition that they take Chinese interests into special consideration. It's much easier working with seculars than extremists.

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This is true. Taliban are carrying too much baggage for China to openly support them.

Can you imagine China supporting them, and then Taliban becoming emboldened and start committing all sorts of attrocities in order to enforce and keep their power?

China cannot just pray and hope that the extremists would keep their words and dont drag China's reputation through the mud

However for the old civilian government to be possibly supported by China, the US and Indian puppets should be expelled first as a condition

For stability in Afghanistan

We need to bring Iran into the mix for a more stable Afghanistan, without taking Iran on board and addressing thier expectations from Afghanistan, it'll be hard to achieve True peace in Afghanistan

I want these 4 nations (Russia (on behalf of central Asia), China , Pakistan and Iran

to come together, talk among themselves and figure out what they expect from Afghanistan going forward

Talk about thier concerns, red lines, demands and together as a group present it all to Talibs

This'll pressurize them to do the right thing

While the whole neighborhood will be united behind Talibs, (only group who can bring stability in Afghanistan), with no support to any rebellion, concentrating on stability of that regime for a more prosperous region

They're not the best option and are on the crazy side but they're the only option

Richard Santos said:

not true. the US provided considerable material and personnel aid well before pearl harbor. Relation with germany withered to effectively nothing well before pearl harbor as Nazi Germany relented under japanese pressure to break off relationship with KMT/ROC. KMT/soviet relationship also withered to effectively nothing between late 1939, at the conclusion of Nomenhan incident in Manchuria and roughly coinciding Stalin’s attention turning west with the beginning of the war in Europe, and June 1941 when Germany invaded the Soviet Union.

For 2 years between the end of 1939 and Dec 1941, the US was the only major power providing significant material and personnel assistance to ROC/KMT

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yes, but mainly between 1931 and Sept 1939, when the Soviet Union and Japan agreed to a cease fire after the Nomenhan border incident in Manchuria.

Stalin had judged the defeat of japanese Kwangtong army during the battle of Kulchin Gol at Nomenhan afforded sufficient deterrence to the japanese so that Soviet Union’s eastern flank is adequately secured, so he no longer needed to continue to irritate japan by supporting KMT/ROC to tie down the japanese. From Sept 1939 to June 1941 Soviet diplomatic attention was essentially fixed on the war in Europe.

After Germany crushed France, Stalin sought to further secure his easter flank diplomatically so he could concentrate on the west by concluding a formal Neutrality pact with Japan in early 1941. This neutrality lasted until Stalin decided to break it in August 1945 to honor his new commitment to the US and UK made in Yalta, but mainly to be in on the spoils on mainland asia and in Japan if the war between the US and Japan turns into a grinding invasion of japanese home island, which seemed probable in May-July 1945.

So during all of WWII in the west, and up until the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the USSR provided almost no assistance to ROC/KMT

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That is so wrong. I think you are bought into the American propaganda. Here are some rough figures from Wikipedia with source to check.

1942之前美国对华提供1.7亿美元贷款。

U.S. provided ROC 170 million dollar loan before 1942.

苏联对华出售重型武器曾超德国，并先后分别对华贷款3笔，共计2.5亿美元。据统计，抗战开始至1941年6月苏德战争爆发前，中国利用苏联信用借款购买飞机904架（包括轻重轰炸机318架）、坦克82辆、汽车1,516辆、自动牵引车602辆、各种火炮1,140门、机枪9,720挺、步枪6万枝、步枪子弹16,700多万发、机枪子弹1,700多万发、炸弹31,100颗、炮弹187万多发:486-491。

USSR provided ROC 250 million dollar loan until 1941.

Regarding Germany, although the Germans stopped supporting China at the pressure of Japan, but ROC was fighting the Japanese using primarily German weapons or copied German weapons by German trained trumps long after German's departure. If you watch any historical photo of the time, ROC troops only began to use US weapons towards to the end of WWII.

And last but important. Chinese don't care about WWII, we care about the war with Japan, we care only about who helped us in that war. Using WWII as a definition may get you win a piece of argument, but has zero barring to the subject.

Overbom said:

This is true. Taliban are carrying too much baggage for China to openly support them.

Can you imagine China supporting them, and then Taliban becoming emboldened and start committing all sorts of attrocities in order to enforce and keep their power?

China cannot just pray and hope that the extremists would keep their words and dont drag China's reputation through the mud

However for the old civilian government to be possibly supported by China, the US and Indian puppets should be expelled first as a condition

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China doesn't need or want to support the Taliban. China will, however, engage with them diplomatically and possibly sign business deals if they appear to be reliable.

Who gives a shit if Taliban is batshit crazy in their own country? Chinese have no control over Taliban in their own sovereign country, and so long as Taliban's batshitness is contained inside its borders, who are the Chinese to judge? It's like how US imperialist overlords always judges 'See See Pee' even though it's none of their business.

So long as Taliban doesn't harm or affect China or Chinese interests, China should diplomatically engage with them and conduct business with them. An economically revitalized Afghanistan is more likely to drift into a moderate position rather than an extremist position. If Taliban is incentivized by economic measures, it's less likely to breed terrorists aimed at it's largest trade partners (See hard limits of US Trump's trade war due to economic interdependence)

whether a purportedly extreme fundamentalist islamist governing organization with a secured territory snd power base can be ideologically reconciled with not trying to detach traditionally islamic populations from the rule of infidels, and not just infidels, but atheists, which are regarded in islam as the worst of worst and far worse than “people of the book”, ie christians and jews, is yet to be seen.

Taliban will undoubtedly act moderate to secure power and avoid giving foreign military still with a toe hold in Afghanistan a reason to reverse their pull out and reason to interfere in Afghanistan internal power struggle when their attention is still fixed on Afghanistan.

But what they do once international attention on Afghanistan wanes and the Taliban subdued internal competitor to their power is yet to be seen. one could be sure their first and most important goal is not to modernize Afghanistan,

Richard Santos said:

whether a purportedly extreme fundamentalist islamist governing organization with a secured territory snd power base can be ideologically reconciled with not trying to detach traditionally islamic populations from the rule of infidels, and not just infidels, but atheists, which are regarded in islam as the worst of worst and far worse than “people of the book”, ie christians and jews, is yet to be seen.

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Atheists are not the "worst of the worst" in Islam simply because the concept did not exist in the 7th century. Islam's enemies are the groups it struggled against and tried to coopt in its early history: the Jewish tribes in the Arabian Peninsula. Mohammad tried and failed to convert these tribes and the insults and setbacks he suffered at their hands became doctrinally enshrined in the religion and made them the eternal enemy of the faithful.

It's why one sees the unique salience of the "Palestinian issue" among Muslims today, even in the face of similar injustices being perpetrated against Muslims in other parts of the world. This is because the hated Jews occupy and hold Islamic holy land - the place where the Prophet was lifted up from Earth into Heaven for an audience with God. This is an intolerable doctrinal assault on the tenets of the religion and it's why the jihad is directed against Israel and the Crusader West. In contrast, who cares how many Rohingya villages the Tatmadaw put to the torch? How does that disturb Islam?

In contrast to this ideological hatred of Jews, Mohammad had barely anything to say about China. It's doubtful he even knew it existed. That indifference is inherited by his followers as all his teachings are.

Overbom said:

This is true. Taliban are carrying too much baggage for China to openly support them.

Can you imagine China supporting them, and then Taliban becoming emboldened and start committing all sorts of attrocities in order to enforce and keep their power?

China cannot just pray and hope that the extremists would keep their words and dont drag China's reputation through the mud

However for the old civilian government to be possibly supported by China, the US and Indian puppets should be expelled first as a condition

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Chinese have been playing central Asian tribes against each other since the Han Dynasty. Right now, China is very smartly being polite to the Taliban while never, ever calling them the Afghan "government", only a "faction". China is still meeting with official Afghan embassy.

India isn't even a true major player in Afghanistan, they are cut off by Pakistan and have nowhere near the amount of resources that China can dedicate. Plus, their ruler is a fanatic Islamophobe. It is ez pz to see through and in this sort of gray area, preception is everything.

Phead128 said:

Who gives a shit if Taliban is batshit crazy in their own country? Chinese have no control over Taliban in their own sovereign country, and so long as Taliban's batshitness is contained inside its borders, who are the Chinese to judge? It's like how US imperialist overlords always judges 'See See Pee' even though it's none of their business.

So long as Taliban doesn't harm or affect China or Chinese interests, China should diplomatically engage with them and conduct business with them. An economically revitalized Afghanistan is more likely to drift into a moderate position rather than an extremist position. If Taliban is incentivized by economic measures, it's less likely to breed terrorists aimed at it's largest trade partners (See hard limits of US Trump's trade war due to economic interdependence)

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China is objectively a net contributor to human progress while so many vassals of a certain country like India, Uganda, etc are net contributors to human misery. Thus any criticism from foreigners is in bad faith if they do not have equal or greater critiques of these countries. Who cares if they judge, do they have the capability to carry out their judgments on China? No. Besides, everyone judges. Why didn't China do business with fascist military dictatorship Indonesia when it was genociding Chinese Indonesians in 1967? Their country their rules right? No.

The actual crime is hypocrisy. You either criticize all for the same action equally or you don't say anything at all. China has always been consistent: general noninterference, but specific calls for peace and moderation for emergency situations. Meanwhile some certain country is supporting xenophobic racist Is.rael and head chopping absolute monarchy Saudi, then criticizing China for so called 'human rights'. That is the distasteful part - hypocrisy. Voting against condemning Nazis and fascists while calling criticism of Is.rael 'antisemitic' is hypocrisy. China calling for peace and moderation from all factions and not doing business with a faction that refuses peace and moderation? Not hypocrisy.

ZeEa5KPul said:

Atheists are not the "worst of the worst" in Islam simply because the concept did not exist in the 7th century. Islam's enemies are the groups it struggled against and tried to coopt in its early history: the Jewish tribes in the Arabian Peninsula. Mohammad tried and failed to convert these tribes and the insults and setbacks he suffered at their hands became doctrinally enshrined in the religion and made them the eternal enemy of the faithful.

It's why one sees the unique salience of the "Palestinian issue" among Muslims today, even in the face of similar injustices being perpetrated against Muslims in other parts of the world. This is because the hated Jews occupy and hold Islamic holy land - the place where the Prophet was lifted up from Earth into Heaven for an audience with God. This is an intolerable doctrinal assault on the tenets of the religion and it's why the jihad is directed against Israel and the Crusader West. In contrast, who cares how many Rohingya villages the Tatmadaw put to the torch? How does that disturb Islam?

In contrast to this ideological hatred of Jews, Mohammad had barely anything to say about China. It's doubtful he even knew it existed. That indifference is inherited by his followers as all his teachings are.

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Oh, atheists, ranging from those who reject all deities, to those who reject all supernatural forces, certainly existed in the 7th century. It existed since Classical Greek times and through Greek influence their presence extended through much of the Mediterranean world by the 1st century CE. They were never dominant anywhere until modern times, but they were always there. It also existed right through the Islamic age in the Islamic world. Some noted Arab and Persian writers and poets were very likely hidden atheists.

Islam itself recognizes the role that the much earlier monotheistic traditions of Judaism and Christianity played in its own relatively late formation. It recognizes the prophets in the Hebrew Bible as well as Jesus as legitimate prophets whose revelations also came from Allah. It regard Hebrew Bible as less perfect predecessors to its own Koran. In its own perceptual hierarchy Islam is naturally the only perfect and true religion, But Jews and Christians, because they also venerate the Hebrew Old Testament which the Muslims regard as true, were considered to be fellow “people of the book” who ultimately worship the same true god, but just don’t have all the revelations of Muhammad. Polytheists on the other hand, are devil worshiper, While atheists are considered so vile that don’t even worship, In Islamic world view only through worship can obe possibly attain truth. So not worshiping at all is the worst there can be. Worshiping the devil at least gets the mode right if the topic wrong. Being people of the book means one worship the right god. But only through Islam can one worship the right god in the right way.