China's Space Program News Thread

[usaf0314]

Re:

Why is China going in this direction with their Shenzhou-9 spacecraft? This test they will attempt is decades behind what the Russians accomplished in 1971 with Salyut 1. Why is China going over old ground?

space program is not like picking up a new cellphone. This is a VERY complex series of program, you MUST learn to do each step correctly before you can move on and attempt greater task. You can NOT just do a launch to the moon before you learn how to send a person into space or how to do a docking procedure with another object in space.

 

[no_name]

Re:

Why is China going in this direction with their Shenzhou-9 spacecraft? This test they will attempt is decades behind what the Russians accomplished in 1971 with Salyut 1. Why is China going over old ground?

That's like asking why are you going to school when your grandpa already did decades ago.

 

[NikeX]

Re:

Because they've never done it before?

Fair enough answer, but at the rate China is progressing they will never overtake the Russians or the west

---------- Post added at 04:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:37 PM ----------

space program is not like picking up a new cellphone. This is a VERY complex series of program, you MUST learn to do each step correctly before you can move on and attempt greater task. You can NOT just do a launch to the moon before you learn how to send a person into space or how to do a docking procedure with another object in space.

The complexity is understood. But private space companies have never done it either and now we see Space X launching and docking a space craft with the ISS just ten years after the company was founded.

Maybe the wrong question is being asked. Maybe the question to ask is what are China's long term goals in their space program? It seems logical that at some point China is going to have to swallow their pride and partner up with the experienced space faring countries and get on board with the rest of the earth.

Considering how far back China is in space, what can China accomplish in space by trying to go it alone?

---------- Post added at 05:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:52 PM ----------

Take space medicine for example, the Russians and Americans have years of experience in micro-gravity environments and how zero-gee affects the human body.

If China expects to carry out independent space exploration they will have to learn what the Russians and Americans already know. China will have to spend at least a decade in space to find out how the body behaves in long duration space flight. There are no shortcuts to gaining this experience.

Meanwhile the other space faring nations will have set new goals and moved on.

Take exploration of the solar system: Does anyone realistically think that China could send a probe to Titan or attempt to explore Europa in the next ten years? Just going to Mars has had multiple failures of probes to that planet by the Russians, Europeans and Americans. Just the vast distances alone make it only possible to send a couple of probes a decade. If that probe fails for whatever reason, you have just wasted a great deal of money and years of time.

Since China is a newbie in the space game how will they cope with these realities?

 

[Blitzo]

Re:

Fair enough answer, but at the rate China is progressing they will never overtake the Russians or the west

Let's be fair though, it was a bit of a bonehead question. It's like you're asking a nation which is developing a fourth generation fighter why they are doing so, when that's already been done and should be developing fifth gen instead. Come on.

Maybe the wrong question is being asked. Maybe the question to ask is what are China's long term goals in their space program? It seems logical that at some point China is going to have to swallow their pride and partner up with the experienced space faring countries and get on board with the rest of the earth.

whoa, it's the US which is denying china cooperation. China's been cooperating with russia and soon the europeans a bit more too.

The question you should be asking is why countries want to develop space technologies in the first place. From there it isn't hard to come up with a reason as to why some may want to go it alone

Considering how far back China is in space, what can China accomplish in space by trying to go it alone?

Space faring capabilities are quite important to national security. Besides, china has the tech know how or is able to develop it, they have the money, why would they necessarily need a partner? Not to mention the inherent benefits to going it alone, self reliance and all.


Didn't china beat the US in satellite launches last year or something? I'm not necessarily claiming that as proof of either side's superiority in anything, but it's undeniable that china is catching up in many respects. Shenzhou will be a move to make regular manned missions a reality.

 

[AssassinsMace]

Re:

Then why are you complaining, Nike X? If China will never catch up, what's it to you? Oh yeah, I know, you're taking digs disguised as questions. Of course you ignore that China's pace is faster than the US and Russian when they started. Why? Because the knowledge is already out there. So I don't know how you can think China will never catch up.

And how do you know the motivations of the Chinese space program? It seems you think it's just about beating the US and Russia which to you think China will never. So why bother to which you're asking. Is this the same logic that China is not experience with building and operating aircraft carriers so why bother? It has to start somewhere. I guess if it were to someone like you where it's just a superficial contest, China should stop. But then thank god China doesn't think in worthless and pointless values.

 

[Blitzo]

Re:

Take space medicine for example, the Russians and Americans have years of experience in micro-gravity environments and how zero-gee affects the human body.

If China expects to carry out independent space exploration they will have to learn what the Russians and Americans already know. China will have to spend at least a decade in space to find out how the body behaves in long duration space flight. There are no shortcuts to gaining this experience.

I'm sure what the russians and americans are willing to share, china will try to glean from them. But at the end of the day you need to do it yourself.
And what makes you think china will take the same amount of time to learn what the russians and americans have learnt before them? This is the same challenge put to the existence of J-XX/20 in the early to mid 2000s, that J-10 was only entering service, surely it would be impossible for the chinese to put up a stealth fighter seeing as it took the US from F-117, B-2 to finally develop the experience for F-22.

Meanwhile the other space faring nations will have set new goals and moved on.

Take exploration of the solar system: Does anyone realistically think that China could send a probe to Titan or attempt to explore Europa in the next ten years? Just going to Mars has had multiple failures of probes to that planet by the Russians, Europeans and Americans. Just the vast distances alone make it only possible to send a couple of probes a decade. If that probe fails for whatever reason, you have just wasted a great deal of money and years of time.

Since China is a newbie in the space game how will they cope with these realities?

This question should be split into two parts.
1. Is there incentive for china to do space alone? -- Yes. as I illustrated in my last post.
2. Is it possible for them to "catch up"? -- with the way budgets are becoming tighter all over the world (while china is still relatively strong) and the fact that china will be going over proven ground to "catch up," and considering many other aspects of science and industry that they have caught up and surprised people in, certainly it should be considered a possibility.

 

[i.e.]

Re:

as for why china is going it alone for manned space / Shenzhou program... like Blitzo pointed out, it is a bone headed question. the americans who refused china's overtures consistently.

back of the day when ISS first were up, china asked if it can join, got turned down.
then china asked for if it can fly some science missions on ISS, turned down.

actually US congress expressivly forbid any NASA involvement with Cihna. I remember last year there were this news story where some chinese media journalists were covering the last shuttle launch, got escorted out

but werid thing is,
actually ISS right now has a big peice of chinese design and built science hardware flying on it,

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the core of Alpha Magnetic Spectrometer is a giant magnet made b Institute of High Energy Physics (IHEP) of the Chinese Academy of Sciences (CAS), 2.6-tons,

the funding for the hardware came from DoE, hehe, that's why it skirted the law.
so the people in NASA actually wanted to cooperate, so is CNSA. but the bone headed congress is so stupid that it can't seem to figure the basics out and is the only one standing in the way of some very substantial big science that bring the entire world together in man's exploration of space and understanding of our universe. well, consider most of them are pandering to a semi-illerate knownothings of both political persuations I am not entire surprised by the current state of affairs.

and Chinese civil space program has a sizable cooperation with ESA.
and ESA has come out saying

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they support chinese Shenzhou to dock with ISS.

so before NikeX belts out these non-factual stuff. lets get the basic facts correct .

 

[NikeX]

Re:

Then why are you complaining, Nike X? If China will never catch up, what's it to you? Oh yeah, I know, you're taking digs disguised as questions. Of course you ignore that China's pace is faster than the US and Russian when they started. Why? Because the knowledge is already out there. So I don't know how you can think China will never catch up.

Who's complaining? I just am trying to get to the bottom of China trying to go it alone in space. Can you answer that question?

And how do you know the motivations of the Chinese space program? It seems you think it's just about beating the US and Russia which to you think China will never. So why bother to which you're asking. Is this the same logic that China is not experience with building and operating aircraft carriers so why bother? It has to start somewhere. I guess if it were to someone like you where it's just a superficial contest, China should stop. But then thank god China doesn't think in worthless and pointless values.

Just asking why doesn't China partner up with another space faring country? Why don't they and save themselves some time and money?

---------- Post added at 06:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:38 PM ----------

I'm sure what the russians and americans are willing to share, china will try to glean from them. But at the end of the day you need to do it yourself.
And what makes you think china will take the same amount of time to learn what the russians and americans have learnt before them? This is the same challenge put to the existence of J-XX/20 in the early to mid 2000s, that J-10 was only entering service, surely it would be impossible for the chinese to put up a stealth fighter seeing as it took the US from F-117, B-2 to finally develop the experience for F-22.

Because the Chinese are just like everyone else on earth and have to put their pants on one leg at a time. Chinese bodies are just like any other human body. Their bones will lose calcium in zero gee just like any other earth man. In the space exploration game there are no short cuts. Both Russia and America have lost people exploring space. China will have to learn that painful lesson too.

This isn't like the J-20. Space is hostile to human life from the start.

This question should be split into two parts.
1. Is there incentive for china to do space alone? -- Yes. as I illustrated in my last post.

Please run your incentive ideas by me again as your post wasn't very clear

2. Is it possible for them to "catch up"? -- with the way budgets are becoming tighter all over the world (while china is still relatively strong) and the fact that china will be going over proven ground to "catch up," and considering many other aspects of science and industry that they have caught up and surprised people in, certainly it should be considered a possibility.

What breakthroughs do you or others see China achieving with this go it alone approach? At some point China will have to do pioneering work and attempt things never before tried by anyone. Any idea what those are?

 

[Blitzo]

Re:

Because the Chinese are just like everyone else on earth and have to put their pants on one leg at a time. Chinese bodies are just like any other human body. Their bones will lose calcium in zero gee just like any other earth man. In the space exploration game there are no short cuts.

You know, that last statement can be used to fit almost any industry at all. And in almost every industry, if you are catching up on things which others have done years before you, at least in modern times, learning those same lessons are far shorter and less painful than the pioneers.

Both Russia and America have lost people exploring space. China will have to learn that painful lesson too.

This isn't like the J-20. Space is hostile to human life from the start.

Actually my point was that any science/industry in which you are trying to catch up in will usually take shorter time than the pioneers who did it first.

Please run your incentive ideas by me again as your post wasn't very clear

Self reliance and the benefits of having such a "strategic" technology of space industry in your own control are two very important reasons for developing your own space tech.
a parallel could be asked as to why countries don't just cooperate on nuclear weapon development. of course there are cases of cooperation between allies, such as the US and UK via trident, but that is rare. space cooperation is more common as most of it is innocent experiments, but the strategic high ground of space is not lost to anybody.

What breakthroughs do you or others see China achieving with this go it alone approach? At some point China will have to do pioneering work and attempt things never before tried by anyone. Any idea what those are?

Let's not change the goalposts here. I have no idea what breakthroughs they'll make, nor have I made any statement concerning that.

Your belief was that it was impossible for china to catch up, I rebutted it saying it was certainly a possibility, and now you're ignoring it. Thus am I correct in assuming that you concede this point?

 

[NikeX]

Re:

Space faring capabilities are quite important to national security. Besides, china has the tech know how or is able to develop it, they have the money, why would they necessarily need a partner? Not to mention the inherent benefits to going it alone, self reliance and all.

First of all it saves time. China's space hardware seems to be a carbon copy of Russian gear. The suits are copied after the Russians. The Shenzhou spacecraft is a copy of Soyuz. I mean the Chinese have enjoyed a major advantage by standing on the shoulders of the Russians.

But at some point the Chinese will have to stand on their own two feet. That day will come when they attempt to go to the moon. The Russians never made it because they didn't have the technology. So that means China will have to model their approach after what has worked and that means the American Apollo program. The Chinese moon program should prove interesting.

Didn't china beat the US in satellite launches last year or something? I'm not necessarily claiming that as proof of either side's superiority in anything, but it's undeniable that china is catching up in many respects. Shenzhou will be a move to make regular manned missions a reality

LEO is not much of a milestone today when you have a space tourist industry gearing up to where common citizens can buy a seat on a ship going into earth orbit. Chinese efforts are not that impressive. For a few hundred thousand dollars I will soon be able to wave at Chinese taikonauts attempting to assemble their orbital station