China's Space Program News Thread

[kbecks]

Actually, due to US’ far more advanced space tech and more far more experienced teams, it’s much cheaper to manufacture rockets and spacecrafts in the US

In some ways yes, things like motors and harnessing/connectors can be purchased from a bevy of aerospace suppliers who produce things in relatively high volume. China has to do all of that themselves which is more expensive (until their aerospace industry catches up), BUT China has a huge savings on labor hours. Building a spacecraft like Dragon is at least 100K labor hours which adds up when you're paying US wages.

They had Series J funding in 2019 (and other series funding every year) and undisclosed additional funding as late as 2021.

They had another one not even a month ago! But that money is going into Starship/Starlink, Falcon and Dragon are very likely profitable on their own at this point.

 

[escobar]

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[ZeEa5KPul]

CNY850mln = USD126mln seems pretty steep for the Shenzhou capsule. Isn't the Soyuz MS capsule only like $23m per unit?

What's the source for this?

It gets worse, Crew dragon costs only ~60 million per seat and it's a private company making hefty profit with every launch not to mention the recovery of second stage as well, I hope there's more to it if not corruption is a possibility

You're comparing per seat costs to the cost of the entire capsule. Since Shenzhou carries 3, it's per seat is $42 million

 

[Helius]

What's the source for this?

[snip]

Here you go.

From RSC Energia, fixed price contract for Soyuz MS TPK -

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2.3. Содержание сделки, в том числе гражданские права и обязанности, на установление, изменение или прекращение которых направлена совершенная сделка: выполнение работ по изготовлению и сборке отсеков, сборке, проведению работ на КИС и сдаче ТПК «Союз МС», дооснащению ТПК «Союз МС» индивидуальным снаряжением (три комплекта) в соответствии с документацией Генерального конструктора на ТПК «Союз МС», подготовке к запуску ТПК «Союз МС», участию в пуске РКН и послеполётному обслуживанию СА ТПК «Союз МС» между Заказчиком – ПАО «РКК «Энергия» и Исполнителем – ЗАО «ЗЭМ» РКК «Энергия».

2.4. Срок исполнения обязательств по сделке, стороны и выгодоприобретатели по сделке, размер сделки в денежном выражении и в процентах от стоимости активов эмитента: - срок исполнения обязательств по сделке: 15.04.2022 г. - стороны по сделке: Заказчик - ПАО «РКК «Энергия», Исполнитель – ЗАО «ЗЭМ» РКК «Энергия». - размер сделки в денежном выражении и в процентах от стоимости активов эмитента: твердая цена: 2 134 533 842,00 (Два миллиарда сто тридцать четыре миллиона пятьсот тридцать три тысячи восемьсот сорок два) рубля 00 копеек, что составляет 2,01% от балансовой стоимости активов Корпорации.

Machine translation:
2.3. The content of the transaction, including civil rights and obligations, to establish, change or terminate which the transaction is aimed at: performance of work on the manufacture and assembly of compartments, assembly, work on the CIS and delivery of the Soyuz MS TPK, retrofitting the Soyuz MS TPK individual equipment (three sets) in accordance with the documentation of the General Designer for the Soyuz MS TPK, preparation for the launch of the Soyuz MS TPK, participation in the launch of the ILV and post-flight maintenance of the Soyuz MS TPK between the Customer - PJSC RSC Energia and the Contractor - CJSC ZEM RSC Energia.

2.4. Deadline for fulfillment of obligations under the transaction, parties and beneficiaries under the transaction, amount of the transaction in monetary terms and as a percentage of the value of the issuer's assets: - Deadline for fulfillment of obligations under the transaction: 04/15/2022 - parties to the transaction: Customer - PJSC RSC Energia, Contractor - CJSC ZEM RSC Energia. - amount of the transaction in monetary terms and as a percentage of the value of the issuer's assets: fixed price: 2,134,533,842.00 (Two billion one hundred thirty four million five hundred thirty three thousand eight hundred forty two) rubles 00 kopecks, which is 2.01% of the balance sheet value of the Corporation's assets.

At RUB-USD exchange rate circa end of 2019-2020 that comes out at just over $26m for the construction of the Soyuz MS spacecraft itself, associated retrofits, delivery and post-flight maintenance works.

 

[taxiya]

CNY850mln = USD126mln seems pretty steep for the Shenzhou capsule. Isn't the Soyuz MS capsule only like $23m per unit?

It is inappropriate to compare Soyuz with any other spacecraft. It has been around for more than five decades with 147 crewed missions (according to wiki). Its R&D and tooling/manufacturing costs have been paid off long long time ago, of course it can be priced very cheap after 50 years. On the other hand Shenzhou only has 10 crewed missions so far. Apollo capsule could have been a good competitor today if it was not stopped. The basic in industry is the economy of scale, the more you produce the cheaper it becomes.

 

[Helius]

It is inappropriate to compare Soyuz with any other spacecraft. It has been around for more than five decades with 147 crewed missions (according to wiki). Its R&D and tooling/manufacturing costs have been paid off long long time ago, of course it can be priced very cheap after 50 years. On the other hand Shenzhou only has 10 crewed missions so far. Apollo capsule could have been a good competitor today if it was not stopped. The basic in industry is the economy of scale, the more you produce the cheaper it becomes.

Ofc a counter to that is China having benefited from the Russian technology transfer of Soyuz which would've shortened the R&D life cycle for the Shenzhou programme, as well as the maturity in Soyuz's own tooling and manufacturing as the baseline for CMSA to build on for SZ which has also been on-going for 20 years now, with the manufacturing process being continually refined and streamlined over the years.

Personally I don't have a position on that matter, nor the necessary technical expertise to get into the nitty-gritty of the processes involved that result in a SZ capsule costing as much as it does.

So not to argue the "appropriateness" for comparing SZ with Soyuz in terms of cost, which the Soyuz has doubtlessly benefited from economies of scale, the more pertinent question for anyone willing to chime in, is whether a relatively new (newer than Soyuz, older than Dragon) platform that is basically Soyuz-derived and modified/'improved'/'modernised' can reasonably be expected to cost over 5x more than the current most modern Soyuz variant, itself a platform that hasn't remained static in it's 50-odd years of service either, and has undergone numerous iterative changes over the years with corresponding re-tooling and assembly work to facilitate those changes, all on the simple basis of differences in economies of scale?

In other words, if China were to launch as many SZ missions, say every 2-3 months over a 20-year period for a total of 100+ missions, is it reasonable to expect each ship would've likewise cost similar or less by that point?

 

[taxiya]

Ofc a counter to that is China having benefited from the Russian technology transfer of Soyuz which would've shortened the R&D life cycle for the Shenzhou programme, as well as the maturity in Soyuz's own tooling and manufacturing as the baseline for CMSA to build on for SZ which has also been on-going for 20 years now, with the manufacturing process being continually refined and streamlined over the years.

I think China got the schematics of the Soyuz, but every component and materials are developed by Chinese. Having Soyuz may save the time (in wind tunnel etc.) in determining the shape of the capsule. But it won't save any time in developing the material and component. These are the actual time consuming part. So the time may be shortened, but not much.

Personally I don't have a position on that matter, nor the technical expertise to get into the nitty-gritty of the processes involved that result in a SZ capsule costing as much as it does.

So not to argue the "appropriateness" for comparing SZ with Soyuz in terms of cost, which the Soyuz has doubtlessly benefited from economies of scale, the more pertinent question for anyone willing to chime in, is whether a relatively new (newer than Soyuz, older than Dragon) platform that is basically Soyuz-derived and modified/'improved'/'modernised' can reasonably be expected to cost over 5x more than the current most modern Soyuz variant, itself a platform that hasn't remained static in it's 50-odd years of service either, and has undergone numerous iterative changes over the years with corresponding re-tooling and assembly work to facilitate those changes, all on the simple basis of differences in economies of scale?

That is nothing strange as I said above. When you do such kind of "modernization/modification", you are building it from scratch, you are not copying the 1960s semiconductor component which you don't produce. When you write the code for the computer, you are writing for a different CPU. Russian tooling is useless for China. China isn't remake the Soviet era's heat-shield or honeycomb aluminium. Essentially, you got an idea on paper, you do everything from scratch.

This is the same reason that US is not remaking Apollo capsule or F-1 engine (even though they wanted such class of engine) and making new Orion is essentially doing from scratch, therefor the cost.

In other words, if China were to launch as many SZ missions, say every 2-3 months over a 20-year period for a total of 100+ missions, is it reasonable to expect each ship would've likewise cost similar or less by that point?

Yes I think so. But I don't think that will ever happen because the reason that Soyuz survived this long is US financing it (without alternative). If the Russians had money they would have replaced Soyuz with Orel long ago.

 

[iantsai]

北京时间2022年7月13日00时30分，我国在西昌卫星发射中心使用长征三号乙运载火箭，成功将天链二号03星发射升空，卫星顺利进入预定轨道，发射任务获得圆满成功。该卫星是我国第二代地球同步轨道数据中继卫星，主要用于为飞船等载人航天器、中低轨道资源卫星提供数据中继和测控服务，为航天器发射提供测控支持。

此次任务是长征系列运载火箭第426次飞行。

China launched Tianlian-2/03 satellite by a CZ-2B rocket from Xichang Satellites Launch Center at 00:30 UTC+8, July 13, 2022. Tianlian-2 series satellites are the 2nd generation earth synchronous orbit data relay satellites. The satellites group form a global platform for the data relay, measurement and control support for the in-orbit spacecrafts and MEO/LEO resource survey satellites. They also provide measurement and control support for space launches.

This is the 426th Changzheng series rocket launch mission.

 

[foxmulder]

Actually, due to US’ far more advanced space tech and more far more experienced teams, it’s much cheaper to manufacture rockets and spacecrafts in the US

Peah... that might be true 2 decades ago. Now, absolutely **no** way.

Boeing's Starliner cost almost $5B to develop and each ships runs around $1.5B to produce.

SpaceX's Dragon development to cost was $3.1B.

NASA's own Ares 1 + Orion cost over $25B

Shenzhou program cost was $2.3B and this included literally everything for the "human program" since China had nothing before. Like astronaut training and crew technology, infrastructure, new tracking sites outside of China (Argentine), a new tracking ship etc...

So, no way.

 

[iantsai]

Wentian Laboratory Module of the Tiangong Space Station will be launched from Wenchang in July 24. Would any fan be there for the event?

北京时间:2022-07-24 :（窗口时间）文昌卫星发射场101工位（LC-101）将使用长征5号B遥3运载火箭（Long March 5B Y3）执行“问天”（Wentian）试验舱的发射任务。6月29日进行整舱推进剂加注，7月10日舱、罩组合后将转移至总装测试厂房，7月18日长征5B遥3运载火箭将转运至发射区。

“问天”实验舱主要面向空间生命科学研究，配置了生命生态、生物技术和变重力科学等实验柜，能够支持开展多种类植物、动物、微生物等在空间条件下的生长、发育、遗传、衰老等响应机理研究，以及密闭生态系统的实验研究，并通过可见光、荧光、显微成像等多种在线检测手段，支持分子、细胞、组织、器官等多层次生物实验研究，还支持开展不同重力条件下生物体生长机理的对比研究。

中国科学院宇宙辐射研究所所长在最近的一次采访中表示，计划在2028年发射高能宇宙辐射探测(HERD)模块，将其安装在“问天”舱，开展“新型空间高能辐射探测的重要科学问题研究。项目围绕搭载在中国空间站上的未来高能宇宙辐射探测设施(HERD)展开，模块在轨运行试验10年以上。期间，将面向新一代更高性能、国际领先的空间暗物质粒子、宇宙线和伽马射线的探测需求，开展关键科学问题研究。

Scheduled timeline(In Beijing time, UTC+8):

June 29: Propellant filled.

July 10: Wentian Laboratory Module and the fairing assembled and transferred to the General Assembly Test Plant.

July 18: CZ-5B Y3 carrier rocket transferred to the launch area.

July 24(estimated window time): Wentian Laboratory Module launched from station 101 (LC-101) of Wenchang Satellite Launch Site by CZ-5B Y3.

The Wentian Laboratory Module is mainly oriented to space life science research. It is equipped with experimental cabinets such as life ecology, biotechnology and variable gravity science. It will support the research on the growth, development, genetics, aging and other response mechanisms of various plants, animals and microorganisms under space conditions, as well as the experimental research on closed ecosystems. It also supports the multi-level biological experimental research on molecules, cells, tissues and organs through a variety of online detection means such as visible light, fluorescence and microscopic imaging, as well as the comparative research on the growth mechanism of organisms under different gravity conditions.

In a recent interview, the director of the Institute of Cosmic Radiation of the Chinese Academy of Sciences said that they planned to launch the High-Energy Cosmic Radiation Detection (herd) module in 2028 and attach it to the Wentian Laboratory Module to carry out research on important scientific issues of new space high-energy radiation detection. The project was carried out around the future High-Energy Cosmic Radiation Detection facility (HERD) on board the Space Station, and the module will be in orbit for more than 10 years. During the period, high standard and world leading research of the key scientific issues will be carried out on the detection of the deep space dark matter particles, cosmic rays and gamma rays.