China's SCS Strategy Thread

SCSbelongstoChina

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Quote from the article:


That's the crux of it. Palau is a "Compact of Free Association" state with the US (in other words, a de-facto US colony with just enough puppetry to get past the decolonisation requirements baked in to UN trust territory status), and it's pretty likely the survey ship was doing survey work for PLAN marine cartography as part of looking to the future and the 2nd island chain. Marine catrographic data is one thing the PLAN really lacks that the US and Europe have an abundance of, and for their submarine fleet to be effective they desperately need to close that gap, especially in areas like the 1st and 2nd chains where conflict is more likely, and where the US currently enjoys a huge advantage in terms of seabed knowledge (they officially had half a century, and de-facto a full century to chart every corner of the Philippine archipelago, and under the CFA and defence relationship with Japan have ongoing rights to do so in the entire 2nd island chain).

As a result, innocent or not (and if it's a naval survey inside an EEZ, you'd need a bloody good lawyer to argue your way out of that one) the Americans will throw their toys out of the pram over it, as one of the few areas where they still enjoy an unquestionable advantage over the PLAN.
The Americans have argued for and against this interpretation of the UNCLOS depending on whether they are doing the surveying or not and apparently so does China now. From what I remember, there isn't a consensus on this clause around the rest of the world either.

Practically, what are the Americans going to do about it besides print more angry newspaper articles?
 

pipaster

Junior Member
Registered Member
Couldn't you send a remote/manned submersible from the survey ship with the appropriate sensors to the desired EEZ?
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
The Americans have argued for and against this interpretation of the UNCLOS depending on whether they are doing the surveying or not and apparently so does China now. From what I remember, there isn't a consensus on this clause around the rest of the world either.

Practically, what are the Americans going to do about it besides print more angry newspaper articles?

China has never officially changed its position that such activities should be illegal, but so long as it is not, why should China unilaterally limit itself while the other side shows zero constraints?

It could even be argued that such moves are China putting pressure on the US to accept China’s position and make such activities illegal, because we all know the Anglos will never find anything wrong with any activity so long as it’s only then doing it to coloured peoples. But as soon as they are on the receiving end it’s all fake outrage and moralising sermons.
 

davidau

Senior Member
Registered Member
China has never officially changed its position that such activities should be illegal, but so long as it is not, why should China unilaterally limit itself while the other side shows zero constraints?

It could even be argued that such moves are China putting pressure on the US to accept China’s position and make such activities illegal, because we all know the Anglos will never find anything wrong with any activity so long as it’s only then doing it to coloured peoples. But as soon as they are on the receiving end it’s all fake outrage and moralising sermons.
Well said, bravo
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
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This is a great discussion we are having on future Chinese carrier fleet size. Btw, I don't think we can use annual operating cost of an USN carrier to infer the cost for Type 003 and its air wing. PLAN crew members are just going to be paid a lot less. PLAN activities will also be less demanding than what's expected out of a USN group. Once China really gets its carrier construction going, I think $4.5 billion might also be an overestimate to production cost.

Having said that, carrier groups obvious cost a lot of money. In the past, people have often suggested that PLAN will eventually settle in with 6 carrier groups, which would work out to be 2 groups per fleet. I'm not sure there is any evidence that's how many groups PLAN planners are looking at. We have seen them having great ambitions than even the most optimistic projections. Their carrier program is progressing at much faster pace than what I would've expected. Their LHD program is also progressing faster than I would've expected. If they do end up with 10 carrier groups, I would not be shocked. It does seem to me that 6 is a more likely number until they can match up more evenly with USN air wing and nuclear submarine fleet. It would take them launching a super carrier every 4 years to just get to 6 carriers in service by 2035(that's assuming CV-16 doesn't retire by then). If we assume that can be reduced to one every 3 years after the first couple of unit, they would not get to 6 CATOBAR capable carriers until 2040 and 8 by 2045.

If USN, with 11 carriers, thinks that it only needs 273 F-35C and a larger number of super hornets, I think it'd be unrealistic to expect more J-35s than that. So, I'd say a production run of 270 J-35s is the most likely we will see. The remaining of the fixed air wing will be KJ-600s, J-15B and J-15BDs (maybe 160 of them in total).

Now, 270 is still a pretty small number for a 5th generation project. The cost per aircraft will be quite high if they end up producing 20 J-35s a year in peak production. In some years, they wouldn't even need to produce J-35s if a new carrier is still waiting to be launched. J-20 would be cheaper than J-35 to produce, operate and support in that scenario. In order to keep SAC and the J-35 suppliers healthy, they absolutely need a land version of this aircraft. They cannot make the same mistake that USAF did in shutting down F-22 production so early. The question is what would be a good number of land based version of FC-31 to purchase. I originally anticipated more land based version of FC-31 than J-20. However, given the headstart that J-20 has, that seems to be unlikely. If CAC can actually keep 4 assembly line going, 50 aircraft a year should be easily achievable. With that level of production, they will probably have 300 to 400 J-20s in service by the time they are ready to mass produce land based FC-31. PLAAF is showing an urgency for J-20s. They are not waiting along for WS-15. And even when we look at J-10s vs flankers, the annual production rate between the two weren't that far apart. I don't buy the theory that PLAAF will necessarily purchase more of the smaller aircraft. I think we are more likely to see CAC and SAC eventually building about the same number of 5th generation aircraft per year. If we make the assumption that they will mass produce FC-31 line of aircraft for 20 years (2025 to 2045), that could be up to 800 over its life time, or about 500 in PLAAF. You might have 800 J-20s built from 2020 to 2040. That would be a pretty large run of 5th generation aircraft. I think they have the budget to do so. During peak years, they might procure more 5th generation a year than America does.
 
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latenlazy

Brigadier
so here, US and its alian base, useful, choke point to china, Chinese base, no effective air and sea control 1000 miles..
oh, wait, when did 1000 miles 1st island chain???


ok again, are you serious? since when I said a nuclear power meant China was safe, I said there won't be convential war if china decide to use its carrier to attack US and its alian, by then carrier won't matter anyway...


you do release what you said contridicted to what happened in the world right? on the one side US is moving its troop to guam in order to avoid Chinese missle strike, on the other side you suggest China need 10 extra carrier to do so???
Attacking the US’s assets in the 1st island chain is *not* the same as attacking the US mainland or trying to invade US allies. Especially if China is doing it as a response to US attacks and not a provocation it does *not* trigger nuclear escalation. If you don’t understand this you don’t understand nuclear escalation dynamics. Furthermore, the point is having the ability to contest the US’s positions from the the 1st and 2nd IC vastly decreases the likelihood that the US would try to start a fight at all.

The US isn’t moving *out* of its closer positions to China, it’s *reinforcing* its presence in Guam. Increases in the latter position is not the same as decreases in the former. *But* insofar as the US continues to use Guam China will need to be able to contest the US position that far out in order to decisively end any potential US-China conflict, which, surprise, will require a decent complement of carriers to do.
 
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