China's SCS Strategy Thread

Janiz

Senior Member
Bottom line is China would act no differently than western nations in the regard to pick and choose what it considers "rules based" international order.
Leaving Unclos because of unforable ruling and per se going to the way of favorable 'who's stronger' policy is what you mean? Because the only country that belongs to the famous 'western nations' that I read about all the time here who's not signatory of Unclos is... USA and Turkey!

Joint developement would be best but Japan already tried that with PRC in the East China Sea. It turned out that 'joint' means 'I'll do what I want if you're easing up in this case' for the Chinese side...
What's Phillippines's excuse for claiming Pagasus outside its 200 miles EEZ??
By doing that, isn't it a slap on the face of UNCLOS by Philippines??
If Phillippines side are lunatics then it should be ruled against their claim without making it political I suppose.
 

tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
If Phillippines side are lunatics then it should be ruled against their claim without making it political I suppose.

But the thing is Philippines is supposedly helped by western lawyers or experts. How can they not aware of Philippines violating UNCLOS by claiming Pegasus? They shooting themselves at the foot, that's what it is.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Leaving Unclos because of unforable ruling and per se going to the way of favorable 'who's stronger' policy is what you mean? Because the only country that belongs to the famous 'western nations' that I read about all the time here who's not signatory of Unclos is... USA and Turkey!
You conveniently left out the overwhelming evidence western powers mouth "rules-based order," but do the opposite when situations call for it. So, if westerners could make up rules at the drop of a hat, why not other peoples?
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Leaving Unclos.....
You do know that it is not China leaving UNCLOS, it is Japanese Media made up China leaving UNCLOS? When and which Chinese official said or hinted leaving UNCLOS?

Read my post #2735, and google it if you want and see if you can find any such word (leaving UNCLOS) from Chinese officials.

Then the question is what is it that you base everything in your long post on a fabricated lie (by Japanese media)?
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Leaving UNCLOS is an option for China, but it's the nuclear option and not one to be taken lightly.

There is a whole raft of measures that China could take within the frame of UNCLOS and beyond to respond to the flagrant judicial overreach and activism of the PCA before ever considering such a drastic step as leaving.

The first thing China will do is announce it is ignoring the verdict because the PCA has vastly overstepped its authority and juristiction in starting arbitration proceedings when BOTH China AND the Phlippines have opted out of it when they ractified the treaty.

The second thing China should do is denounce the PCA in accordance with provisions set out in UNCLOS.

China should also explore legal options to have blatantly impartial judges impeached and removed from the court.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
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Even Beijing isn’t sure what it wants. Small wonder regional tensions are flaring.

With a decision from an international ad hoc tribunal tasked with reviewing China’s maritime claims in the South China Sea looming, regional tensions are running high. A key problem is that no nation involved in the current round of tension — not even China itself — has a crystal-clear view of what exactly Beijing is trying to achieve in the South China Sea. That’s because three different schools of thought are each struggling for dominance in Chinese analytical and policy-making circles. A look at the debate within China helps explain the lack of effective communication and the rise of strategic distrust between China, Southeast Asian nations with competing claims, and the United States.
...
But in reality, it’s not at all clear that China itself really knows what it wants to achieve in the South China Sea. Broadly speaking, there are three schools of thought among Chinese analysts about optimal policies toward the region: let’s call them realists, hardliners, and moderates. Chinese academic publications, media reports, and online opinions offer a glimpse into these different views. Since last year, I have also talked to a large number of Chinese scholars, government officials, and ordinary citizens. These three camps are representative of the diversity of Chinese views, although they are certainly not exhaustive of all the different views.
...
China’s realists believe that the fundamentals of China’s current South China Sea policy are sound, with no adjustment needed. They recognize the diplomatic and reputational costs incurred, but tend to slight them because they value China’s physical presence and material capability much more highly than its image abroad. Their belief is underpinned by a crude realist understanding of international politics: material power — and not ephemeral (and in any case un-measurable) factors such as reputation, image, or international law — is the decisive factor in international politics. They thus think time is on China’s side, as long as China can manage its rise. This kind of realpolitik thinking now dominates China’s South China Sea decision-making.

Realists think they are safeguarding China’s national interests by enhancing its material presence in the South China Sea. But they are uncertain about what to do with the newly constructed islands. Should Beijing push for a new round of military installations including placing offensive weapons systems, or are defensive equipments really sufficient for the status quo? Realists want power in the South China Sea, yet are unsure how much power is enough.

A second school of thought — the hardliners — provides alarming answers to the questions realists haven’t yet answered. Not only do they think China should present the seven new islands —constructed out of existing features, including Fiery Cross Reef, Subi Reef, and Mischief Reef — as faits accompli to the outside world, but China should further expand its territorial and military reach in the South China Sea. Such expansion could include: building the islands into mini-bases, conquering some if not all of the features currently under other countries’ control, or turning the Nine-Dash Line map, first published in 1947 and which now serves as Beijing’s legal basis for its claims in the South China Sea, into a territorial demarcation line, thus claiming most of the South China Sea’s territorial waters for China. Hardliners have no regard for the concerns and anxieties of the outside world; they wish only to maximize China’s self-interest.

It is clear that some international media
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about China claiming 90 percent of the South China Sea are actually describing this, and only this, school of thought inside China. The good news is that this view does not yet dominate high-level decision-making. Hardliners within government are usually found in the military and law enforcement agencies. A maximalist policy toward the South China Sea would certainly serve their parochial bureaucratic interests. But hardliners also reside in the Chinese general public, the vast majority of which only has a superficial and impressionistic view of the South China Sea situation. Grassroots hardliner calls for assertiveness are based on emotional nationalism, not a studied consideration of China’s interests.

The difference between the hardliners and the realists is that, while the hardliners’ views are also based on realpolitik, there is an additional underpinning of hyper-nationalism, making accommodation with other countries especially difficult. Although the hardliners are not dominating current policy, the leadership cannot easily ignore or dismiss them for fear of stoking popular nationalism, a grassroots force which can easily
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out of control.

The third group, the moderates, believe it’s time for China to adjust its policy to clarify, if only gradually, its goals in the South China Sea. Moderates recognize that Beijing’s current ambiguity about its territorial claims and strategic design is feeding the outside world’s fear and distrust. They fault the government for failing to provide a compelling strategic narrative and promote effective communication with the outside world. China’s habitual just-do-it approach when it comes to major strategic decisions such as island building is actually harmful to its own self-interest. By forgoing any attempt to legitimize island-building, it ensures international suspicion of rather than sympathy for China’s actions.

Moderates argue that China needs to gradually clarify the Nine-Dash Line. Maintaining deliberate ambiguity would simply make the map a historical burden and an unnecessary obstacle to reaching diplomatic compromise. In their view, it is counterproductive to interpret the map as a territorial demarcation line, because doing so would make China an adversary of most Southeast Asian states as well as the United States. Were China to go down this path, they argue, it would eventually face the ominous danger of strategic over-stretch. The biggest problem for China, the moderates observe, is that it lacks a clear and effective strategy for the South China Sea.

The moderates differ much from the realists and the hardliners. But the three share an extremely important area of agreement: the necessity of island-building. During my extensive conversations with leading Chinese scholars and government officials since last year, I have not come across a single person who would say island building is a mistake. They may give different reasons for construction and offer different assessments of the consequences, but they all believe that this is something China must do, sooner or later. These reasons range from the more strategic to the more mundane; from establishing a strategic foothold in the South China Sea to providing better living conditions for Chinese personnel stationed there. But they all feel that given the current stage of China’s rise, Beijing must establish a presence in the South China Sea commensurate with its newfound power and status, especially since most other claimant states already have decades-old presences in the region.

Members of the international community have repeatedly criticized China’s island-building. But given the apparent national consensus inside China, and also given the fact that the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea does not strictly proscribe building on existing maritime features, is it a good policy to keep targeting island building activities themselves? Wouldn’t it be in every nation’s interest to move on to the more strategic question of creating a new but stable regional status quo?

A new status quo demands China clarify its strategic intentions. Right now, not even the Chinese leadership has a clear answer to that question. Among the three schools analyzed above, only the extreme hardliners have a quick, but highly destabilizing, answer. The rest of China is debating what China’s strategy toward the South China Sea should be. This is an important fact. It suggests that China’s South China Sea policy has not hardened yet, and is thus malleable.

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joshuatree

Captain
This case involving exclusively on China and Phil means what? Means only those two are entitled to SCS??

It is what I consider a tunnel vision court case. As you say, there are more than two parties. Furthermore, this isn't an issue where all parties belong under a single state and authority for enforcement. The court would argue it is only ruling what has been brought before it but the items indicated to be ruled by the court would only add chaos because not all parties were involved and not all details are going to ruled/resolved. Out of those 15 points, most of the critical ones the court simply reserved the right to judge on them. So the items it will outright rule on doesn't clarify the big picture. For example, ruling Scarborough as only entitled to 12 NM isn't going to change anything when it comes to fishermen being banned from fishing in Scarborough. But you'll end up having folks twisting such a ruling and create more chaos.

The strangest thing is, Taiping being charged as only a rock isn't even one of those points on the case. So if a court is supposedly only to rule on what has been brought before it, there really should be no ruling on Taiping as the Philippines while mentioning it, did not specifically ask for a ruling on that feature. Indirectly the court has to? Then that becomes subjective and no longer adhering to only ruling what has been brought before it. It becomes lawfare, how to game the system. Vietnam has occupied features in the area the Philippines is seeking relief. Vietnam submitted a position paper to ask the court to respect its interests. What does that mean? Why has the court not asked for clarification? So Vietnam can say something official about the case but not officially be a part of it? That's just shady. You should only be able to make any submissions only if you are petitioning to be joining the case.

Ragging on China about not following rules is just hypocrisy with the number of examples given of other states doing the same thing and turning a blind eye to them.
 

joshuatree

Captain
You do know that it is not China leaving UNCLOS, it is Japanese Media made up China leaving UNCLOS? When and which Chinese official said or hinted leaving UNCLOS?

Read my post #2735, and google it if you want and see if you can find any such word (leaving UNCLOS) from Chinese officials.

Then the question is what is it that you base everything in your long post on a fabricated lie (by Japanese media)?

Rather ironic if the source of the UNCLOS departure rumor mill is from the very country that did leave the League of Nations on Feb. 24, 1933 because it disliked a 42 to 1 vote that Manchuria should be restored to China.
 

joshuatree

Captain
Joint developement would be best but Japan already tried that with PRC in the East China Sea. It turned out that 'joint' means 'I'll do what I want if you're easing up in this case' for the Chinese side...
If Phillippines side are lunatics then it should be ruled against their claim without making it political I suppose.

Off topic but joint also meant not instigating and anteing up the Diaoyu/Senkaku dispute. Even the US urged Japan to consult with Japan before instigating in 2012. The Chinese already had development in the ECS back in 2006 before any joint agreement and all development have been in undisputed areas.

China also did move forward with joint development in the SCS with the Philippines and Vietnam. It was the Philippines that walked away.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
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Over the sudden, these foreigners know what Chinese are thinking. These guys keep on "amusing" us.

I know what you think, I know what you don't want, I know you don't know what you want, I (japanese media) know you want to leave UNCLOS, I (WSJ) know what Cambodian think better of than their PM.

The essence is this, I am God, I speak for everyone regardless whatever. Agree with me, you are thinking, disagree me, you must be out of your mind and therefor I must think for you.
 
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