China's SCS Strategy Thread

[Blitzo]

The huge difference is Triton Island is in PARACEL, not SPRATLY.
Triton is very close to Danang, Vietnam ( the famous naval deep water ports ) and Hainan, the home of PRC submarine fleet and future CV fleet.

Triton is very far, far away from Philippines.
This humiliation is happening in PARACEL not in SPRATLY.

If we are honest, then we all will admit -- this is not about FON.
It has never been about FON, because Nobody is obstructing FON in South China sea.

This is all about HEGEMONIC right to humiliate and destroy everybody on Earth. The Mightiest force on Earth has humiliate Vietnam and PRC. Taiwan is PRC.

===

1) What if, ... ... the next Spit--in--your--Face humiliation is done by Japanese warship citing FON too ?

2) What if, ... ... the next Spit--in--your--Face humiliation is done by Indian warship citing FON too ?

3) What if, ... ... the next Spit--in--your--Face humiliation is done by Australian warship citing FON too ?

If MIGHT is not RIGHT, and ... ...
In order to be JUST and EQUAL to every nation, PRC strategy MUST let all the other nations sail through inside PRC 12 nautical miles of the not so SACRED sovereignty as well. --- Right ??

Yes, yes, yes, yes ... ...
You are weak, then you must.
Peaceful strategy to all weaker nations.

You need to chill out a little.

It doesn't matter if a Japanese, Indian or Australian ship wants to conduct an FoN. They know there will be consequences and pushback from China if they do so.

Furthermore, don't get too emotional calling it a "humiliation". At the end of the day China is still the one building and solidifying its presence in the SCS, enhancing its naval capabilities by the largest amount per year in the region, and there's nothing anyone else including the US can do to stop them unless they're willing to start a war.

If all China has to deal with is a few US warships sailing within 12nmi of an island now and then, who cares.

Btw, for the US it is about "FoN" because they are talking about military "FoN" rather than civilian FoN. No one is obstructing civilian FoN in the SCS, but the US has been consistently historically adamant in regards to its self perceived right in deploying military vessels around the globe in an unimpeded manner -- this isn't anything new.

 

[Brumby]

The huge difference is Triton Island is in PARACEL, not SPRATLY.
Triton is very close to Danang, Vietnam ( the famous naval deep water ports ) and Hainan, the home of PRC submarine fleet and future CV fleet.

Triton is very far, far away from Philippines.
This humiliation is happening in PARACEL not in SPRATLY.

If we are honest, then we all will admit -- this is not about FON.
It has never been about FON, because Nobody is obstructing FON in South China sea.

This is all about HEGEMONIC right to humiliate and destroy everybody on Earth. The Mightiest force on Earth has humiliate Vietnam and PRC. Taiwan is PRC.

===

1) What if, ... ... the next Spit--in--your--Face humiliation is done by Japanese warship citing FON too ?

2) What if, ... ... the next Spit--in--your--Face humiliation is done by Indian warship citing FON too ?

3) What if, ... ... the next Spit--in--your--Face humiliation is done by Australian warship citing FON too ?

If MIGHT is not RIGHT, and ... ...
In order to be JUST and EQUAL to every nation, PRC strategy MUST let all the other nations sail through inside PRC 12 nautical miles of the not so SACRED sovereignty as well. --- Right ??

Yes, yes, yes, yes ... ...
You are weak, then you must.
Peaceful strategy to all weaker nations.

Might makes Right

View attachment 24584


View attachment 24585

That is simply an emotional response devoid of the rules that govern conduct in the high seas. UNCLOS provides for innocent passage and that is what had happened. I don't understand this huff and puff.

 

[tidalwave]

lol, so what if US FON over Trinton??!
China can respond by doing reclaimation work at Trinton, It's calling all the real shots.

It can turn Paracel island chain into a real naval base and settlement base with population of 50K.

There's always 2 sides to a coin. For every move US made, CHina can double down and move further ahead.

 

[Brumby]

Btw, for the US it is about "FoN" because they are talking about military "FoN" rather than civilian FoN. No one is obstructing civilian FoN in the SCS, but the US has been consistently historically adamant in regards to its self perceived right in deploying military vessels around the globe in an unimpeded manner -- this isn't anything new.

I don't agree with your position on "civilian FON" both legally and philosophically. We have already been through this at least more than once. FON principles are foundered on the laws of the seas that had underpinned global trade. I don't remember you had articulated a position that supports your point of view.

 

[GreenestGDP]

Personally, I always champion Peaceful economic and military development and progress ( Win--Win--Win ) around the globe for every nation.

I am not being argumentative. Below is my logic.

If PRC allow American to do their Military FoN and Snooping, then
PRC shall allow Japanese, Indian, Australian, and every other nation their Military FoN and Snooping inside Paracel and Spratly too.
Right ??

If not, why not ?
Because, PRC is mightier than all other nation, except US ??

Basically, if PRC allow only American to do a Military FoN and Snooping in PRC territory, and obstructing the same military FoN from other nation, then PRC is practising < MIGHT makes RIGHT >.
Correct ?

This is self--destructively inconsistent to PRC long term wellbeing as a nation.

===

If PRC is practising < MIGHT makes RIGHT >, then PRC must be lying.
How can PRC claim that PRC is a peacefully rising nation ??
PRC is undermining themselves by helping Reuters, Wall Street Journals, New York Times, Barron, Washington Post, Fox news, Fortune, ShangHai CaiXin (hidden), SCMP, and other anti-China news outlets in promoting the China threat theory.

In summary, if PRC is practising < MIGHT makes RIGHT >, then it means and implies that one day, when PRC is the mightiest, then PRC will act as the Global Hegemon and trampling every other weaker nation sovereignty.

This practise of < MIGHT makes RIGHT > is definitely and strongly exacerbate military violences and sufferings all around the globe. There will be no peace for weaker nation.
Am I Correct ??

@ Brumby
What is your logic ?

 

[Blitzo]

I don't agree with your position on "civilian FON" both legally and philosophically. We have already been through this at least more than once. FON principles are foundered on the laws of the seas that had underpinned global trade. I don't remember you had articulated a position that supports your point of view.

I think we've already been through the matter many times. I've effectively said that it would be logically disingenuous to conflate the navigation of military vessels with the navigation of civilian vessels and you've to be the same or equal whereas you've stated a different position.
I was merely repeating my point of view and the point of view that China has stated in the past.

China has also been fairly consistent in saying that they have no issue with the FoN of civilian vessels but they do with military vessels.

edit: the way the FM have consistently stated it in the past, is "China is resolute in upholding navigation freedom in the South China Sea that all countries are entitled to under international law. There has never been any problem with navigation freedom in the South China Sea. Meanwhile, China firmly opposes actions that threaten other country’s sovereignty and security and move the region further towards militarization under the name of navigation and overflight freedom."

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...and "China respects other countries' freedom of navigation in accordance with international law, Lu said, however, China is firmly opposed to any action that harms China's sovereignty and security in the name of freedom."

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The above, in context, only makes sense when applying the recent history by differentiating between civilian and military vessels, from the Chinese PoV at least.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Let's keep the discussions civil and apolitical please. Thank you!

 

[Brumby]

Personally, I always champion Peaceful economic and military development and progress ( Win--Win--Win ) around the globe for every nation.

I am not being argumentative. Below is my logic.

If PRC allow American to do their Military FoN and Snooping, then
PRC shall allow Japanese, Indian, Australian, and every other nation their Military FoN and Snooping inside Paracel and Spratly too.
Right ??

If not, why not ?
Because, PRC is mightier than all other nation, except US ??

Basically, if PRC allow only American to do a Military FoN and Snooping in PRC territory, and obstructing the same military FoN from other nation, then PRC is practising < MIGHT makes RIGHT >.
Correct ?

This is self--destructively inconsistent to PRC long term wellbeing as a nation.

===

If PRC is practising < MIGHT makes RIGHT >, then PRC must be lying.
How can PRC claim that PRC is a peacefully rising nation ??
PRC is undermining themselves by helping Reuters, Wall Street Journals, New York Times, Barron, Washington Post, Fox news, Fortune, ShangHai CaiXin (hidden), SCMP, and other anti-China news outlets in promoting the China threat theory.

In summary, if PRC is practising < MIGHT makes RIGHT >, then it means and implies that one day, when PRC is the mightiest, then PRC will act as the Global Hegemon and trampling every other weaker nation sovereignty.

This practise of < MIGHT makes RIGHT > is definitely and strongly exacerbate military violences and sufferings all around the globe. There will be no peace for weaker nation.
Am I Correct ??

@ Brumby
What is your logic ?


View attachment 24588

You are saying quite a bit but frankly I am not entirely sure what is your main point. Your statement seems to suggest that the basis of the USN actions are grounded in some way to "might is right". If that is your main point then I would say that is completely groundless. The meaning of FON is not some modern day invention. The principles behind it had been formulated over centuries and more recently embodied within UNCLOS in which China is one of many signatories. Within the provisions of UNCLOS, a 12 nm territorial sea is established as sovereign waters in which foreign military vessels can transit under the meaning of innocent passage. What constitute as innocent is defined by 10 conditions (from memory). The USN recent action is in accordance to what is allowed by such international treaty in which China itself agreed to when it signed on to UNCLOS. The basis of US action is according to international convention and is not by might. The logic is simply conducting a passage in accordance to what is allowed and agreed by China as a signatory.

 

[Blackstone]

I don't agree with your position on "civilian FON" both legally and philosophically. We have already been through this at least more than once. FON principles are foundered on the laws of the seas that had underpinned global trade. I don't remember you had articulated a position that supports your point of view.

Since there's no proof China has impeded commercial traffic, you aren't able to manufacture legitimate criticism. Therefore, you ignore civilian FON, not because it isn't an important topic, but because it is good evidence China supports international law.

 

[GreenestGDP]

@Brumby

1) Are U stating that -- is it fine for PLAN to sail and snoop around all over Australian naval bases just outside 12 nm ? ( in area between 13 nm --- 15 nm )

2) What about Indonesian TNI Navy -- is it fine for TNI Navy to sail and snoop around all over Australian naval bases just outside 12 nm ? ( in area between 13 nm --- 15 nm )

===

Overwhelming majority of Indonesian TNI Navy think Australia stole Christmas island from Indonesia, and Australian intentionally split up East Papua island away from Indonesia. ... ...

3) Given the above, are you stating that Australia will keep quiet if TNI Navy and PLAN sail inside 12 nm around Christmas island, and conducting frequent joint naval exercises around 100 nm from Australian West coast ??

Well, I rest my case --- if you say Yes, to all 3 above.