China's Internet Boom, Games, Addiction & other news

flyzies

Junior Member
2nd of 2 articles of that big picture

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Clash of the Titans

How the Democratic Republic of Google is testing China's appetite for democracy itself.

Google's decision to defy Beijing's rules censoring the Internet could be seen as an isolated event—one company pulling out of China for a set of specific reasons. Certainly many other firms are acting that way, hoping to continue their pursuit of profits in the fastest-growing market in the world. But in fact Google's decision reflects important and expanding strains within China, and in its relations with the rest of the world.

"China places unique limits on information," Google CEO Eric Schmidt pointed out to me last week. It is the only major country with an elaborate, formal system of censorship that all information-oriented companies must accept. That's why in China, if you type the words "Tiananmen Square" or "Dalai Lama" into Google (or Baidu, the country's leading search engine), you will find mostly blocked sites. At the same time, China has been busily developing the world's most elaborate apparatus devoted to cyber-spying and cyberattacks. Chinese hacking has ramped up over the past few years, directed not only at human-rights organizations, but, importantly, at foreign businesses and governments. Many, if not most, such attacks originate from China; former National Security Agency director William Studeman has called them the "biggest single problem" facing the U.S. national-security establishment.

Great powers spy on each other, but China's efforts appear to be unusually intense. They are also new. U.S. officials who have served in the People's Republic say that only a decade ago, they didn't need to sweep the U.S. Embassy in Beijing for bugs because the Chinese government would never spy on America so blatantly, for fear of the loss of face it would suffer if discovered.

The most significant shift that might be taking place in Beijing right now is an increasing disregard for its relationship with Washington and the West in general. During the 1980s and 1990s, Beijing's strategy of modernization produced a simple foreign policy: be nice to the West, particularly the Americans. The Chinese government needed the United States as a source of capital, as a market for its exports, as a provider of technology and know-how, and as a political ally to achieve China's goals, such as membership in the World Trade Organization. From Deng Xiaoping to Jiang Zemin, China's leaders followed that path and kept their eyes on the prize.

But over the past few years, China has been changing. Many within the ruling elite seem to believe that they no longer need the United States as much as they once did. How else to explain Chinese behavior toward U.S. officials and businessmen? At Copenhagen, China displayed an unprecedented level of disregard for the United States and other Western countries. Here is the former National Security Council official and seasoned China scholar Kenneth Lieberthal's analysis of that event and Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao's negotiating strategy:

"Chinese diplomacy at this meeting overall was somewhat puzzling. Second-level Chinese officials showed up at critical meetings of heads of state on Friday afternoon—the kind of clumsy tactic that Beijing is usually far too smart to employ. The open dissent at the Friday-evening meeting—including having one member of Wen's delegation shout and wag his finger at President Obama—suggests that Wen had lost control over his own negotiating team. (Wen told the translator not to translate this official's initial outburst and then simply ignored him the second time he raised his voice.) Was Wen going beyond the limits of his negotiating authority? Were members of his negotiating team protecting their personal flanks back in Beijing?"

Whatever the explanation, Beijing's behavior was novel. The Chinese government is usually obsessed with protocol, and would never before have treated a head of state like Obama, who outranks Wen, so cavalierly.

Times are changing, and perhaps Beijing is reflecting these changes. Over the past decade, China's own internal market has grown; its exports to non-Western countries are now significant; it has vast capital surpluses of its own. All this might be making China less willing to accommodate itself to Western ideas, companies, and governments. Western business leaders report that the Chinese government now frankly admits it wants to develop local champions and will not give Western companies unfettered access to the Chinese market.

In this sense, China does not resemble other small East Asian countries like Singapore or South Korea, which maintained an outward orientation even as they grew more advanced. Because of its size, China appears to be fixated on its internal dynamics and less focused outward as it moves up the economic ladder. China's cultural tendencies toward solipsism and a Leninist political system that feels threatened by some global trends only add to this growing parochialism.

Another recent shift has been the renewed centrality of the state. Yasheng Huang, a scholar at MIT, notes that during the 1980s and early 1990s, China's growth was mostly led by the rural, private sector. More recently it has been driven by the urban, public sector. This has empowered the state in the economy, a phenomenon that has accelerated over the past year as China spent 12.3 percent of GDP on its fiscal stimulus.

Whether Beijing's actions—toward Google, other Western companies and countries, and the Obama administration—are part of a new strategy remains to be seen. There are voices in China, often called "the new right," that advocate a more muscular, aggressive approach for Beijing. But China's leadership might also be divided, uncertain, and confused. Its actions might be the result of tactics and blunders, not strategy. (This is often the case with governments, and we on the outside mistake confusion for conspiracy.) Beijing confronts a set of new challenges abroad and at home, not the least of which is a looming succession struggle within the Communist Party.

Will China's new attitude cost it in economic terms? Perhaps. Certainly many scholars, like Carnegie's Minxin Pei, argue that the tensions between China's authoritarian regime and its economic ambitions are growing as the economy and society modernize. Schmidt argues that limiting information and communications cannot produce the kind of economic growth, creativity, and productivity that China seeks in the long run. But whether or not that is true, one thing is becoming clear: while the Internet is changing China, China is also changing the Internet. And while globalization has shaped China, China is also shaping globalization.

We have assumed, perhaps too easily, that China's rise would be accompanied by a process of modernization within that country that would make Beijing easier and easier to deal with. And in many ways that has proved true. But now we must confront a prospect that I have worried and written about—that China's rise will reinforce Chinese nationalism and a sense of uniqueness and actually make the country less likely to easily integrate into the global system.

The world transitioned seamlessly from British to American global hegemony largely because the two countries had very similar conceptions of global order and values. Both were seafaring, free-trading countries, with a High Protestant mission and a sense of shared universal values. As China's voice rises in the councils of the world, we will notice that it speaks in a very different language than the Anglo-American dialect. And this might prove to worry many countries beyond the United States and Britain. As countries like India and Japan and Australia and Indonesia think about a world in which Chinese values will shape the rules and routines of international life, they will find themselves discomfited. If China truly wants to be a world power, it will have to show that it has an outward orientation, open to the currents of modernity that are sweeping the world. How Beijing chooses to respond to Google will be a good test of its desire and ability to be a global leader.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Red Mercruy, very well put. I, too, have noticed how Google says one thing but does another. I also noticed Google is working with the US government and US corporate media, and vice versa. This seems more like a massive coordinated move to expand their powers, but the pretext is how Google is really trying to empower the Chinese power (without giving Chinese people any significant power or primary power over their own Internet). I hear lots of noise from Google and the US government, but they provide ZERO actual proof they will empower the Chinese people. At the same time, they provide lots of proof they will try to dominate Chinese people.

If you read the full history of Haiti, which the US government and US corporate media attempts to hide and misreport, you'll read how US corporations, the US government, and other foreign entities liberated Haiti's economy and governmnet, but the liberation made Haiti worse off than before. So the liberation was really chaos. Like I said, out of the boiling pot and into the frying pan.

Haiti is only one example. There are more examples of fake liberations or failed liberations in Latin America, Africa, the Middle East, and other regions. Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Palestine are powerful examples of what happens when US corporations and the US government are allowed to do anything they want for liberation or whatever cover story.

I dislike many things about the Chinese government and Chinese people, too, but at least they ARE, without a doubt, controlling and improving their lives despite lots of interference from two-faced foreign entities. Every few years I really notice the Chinese people gaining more power over their own lives. The situation has been making failures, but, overall, it's working and improving, unlike most nations out there (even those nations receiving lots of US corporate aid and US government aid). I don't think the Chinese government and the Chinese people get enough credit for what they have accomplished, but they sure get a lot of interference (especially from certain factions).


Censorship and shutting down Google doesn't help the Chinese people. Rather, all it does is quite frankly is to chain the full potential of the Chinese individual. Sometimes its hard to understand but even if you don't have a political democracy, you do need a democracy in opinion in order to have checks and balances in the system.

Oh believe me, Google enpowers the Chinese people more than the Great Firewall. For example I know many businesses outside of China uses Google to search for manufacturers and suppliers inside China. By doing so, they provide China business and its people employment. Baidu doesn't do that. Google does. I will get back to this later, about where Google China's real income appears to come from.

You cannot have a stable Internet presence if for example, lets say the SDF is in China. Then someone uploads Tianammen Tank Man picture or a portrait of the Dalai Lama up in one of the posts. Bam! The entire SDF site is censored, and everyone involved suspected of treason. That's basically how the Chinese censorship system works. The guy who probably uploaded the pics probably may not even be a Tibetan symphatizer at all, but a business rival.

This greatly increases the cost of operating a website in China because of continuous monitoring.

A backgrounder:
Google's Deep CIA Connections - Pravda.Ru

Hardly an objective source.

I disagree. Google censors websites which may have child pornographic or copyright violating material. It is not just a blind search engine. But of course, this type of censoring is okay, because it doesn't violate the sensitivities of its main customer base.

What's wrong and what's being asked to do is political censorship---which is ill defined. There is no clear line, where economical and social dissent, like complaints about corruption and Chinese corporations, can be interpreted as political dissent. Especially the collusion of government with corporations, and not just Chinese corporations but all corporations including US ones.

From another perspective, this is a strength. It is flexible and adaptable to the current political climate. When foreign powers stop threatening China with destabilization, stop supporting separatist movements, stop promoting the China threat and China containment agendas, then there would be less need for censorship and it can decrease without having to pass a law.

You call that strength? I call that shifting sands. If you understand how to do business, the most important thing about a business environment is clear, distinct laws. Not vague laws that can be arbitrarily used against you after you have made a lot of investment, staked your and your family's financial future. When you have vague laws subject to liberal interpretation by bureaucrats, those bureaucrats can use them against you at whim, forcing you to bed them, creating a cycle of corruption.

Companies which cannot adapt to China's unique characteristics are welcomed to seek fortune elsewhere. There are plenty of Chinese companies who are able to fill the void they leave.

That's BS and a major one. Chinese companies that adapt to China's unique characteristics tend form a business model that inevitably fails elsewhere.

Again, you are condemning the government of China without proof.

Every finger, from the multiple security companies like Verisign, point and traced the attacks to sites within China. They are of such organization and sophistication that you are you going to put this with some random hacker group?

They still have no proof. The command and control servers are in Taiwan. It is just as likely that it is industrial espionage by entities in Taiwan. They just happened to also breach some human rights activists' accounts in the process, and this is used as an excuse to finger China.

Google sent their own hackers to break into those servers. That's how they knew it originated inside China. Attempt to break into human right activist accounts probably only a decoy to the real thing, access to Google source code.

I know Chinese American businesspeople who run their businesses in China while operating schools and training facilities. Some of them have to run businesses while opening schools/training facilities, because they are forced to by the Chinese government. They even help Chinese people travel around the world for education and training. Once again, the Chinese government forces some of these Chinese American businesspeople to send Chinese abroad for education and training. That is empowering the Chinese people and liberating the Chinese people.

I also know that Western educated Chinese are not likely to get a high position in a Chinese corporation or a government position.

A few years back simple tricks could significantly game the page rank, and even today, there are marketing companies who offer services in promoting page rank. So even if there is no in-built bias, organizations and individuals can work to bias it. I presume the US government can bias it quite well, through fiat or subterfuge.

Nothing wrong with this. This is called SEO or Search Engine Optimization. This is all public. You assume only US organizations know this? Its everywhere, even Chinese organizations know how to use this.

Actually, spelling it wrong is one of the ways to get past the simple filter.

That's not the point. Simple string analysis and you can make a hit on a deliberate misspelling. Then someone go checks the site himself sees the picture and your site, and yourself, gets red flagged.

Huh? I never did hint on anything about that in my previous comments. What I basically meant was that, after what the Chinese public have experienced during the riots in Tibet and Xinjiang, they are wary of the western media's true intention everytime they talk about media freedom.

GFW doesn't help the Chinese situation, it makes them only worst. How can Chinese people go to these websites and challenge these comments? No. They can't. GFW effectively muzzles them, while the media continue with their rampage. And those who can, ironically, have to use those VPN networks.

Can you please provide a source for this? So far I haven't seen a number quoted as this high

Where do you get your information? Here is one of them for mine:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


That's like Google is hovering at 40% currently. Bing and Yahoo are almost no factors at all. Baidu is now under 60%.




Now for other news.

1. German government made a public announcement not to use Internet Explorer, which the attack is made through.

2. Chinese hacker groups apparently went out to defaced some Iranian sites after the Iranian Cyber Army defaced Baidu.

3. GMail now defaults to HTTPS, the secure version.

4. Google CN is still showing censuring results. They now seem to be discussing matters with the Chinese authorities. Lol, seems like Google is backtracking. Thanks to Sergei Brin's "moral courage", it put 700 employees and millions of Chinese users and business partners at risk. I'm usually in the line when satisfaction of conscience and putting food on the table for your family, your family comes first. My take on is that it appears simmering down.

5. The part that Google threatened to close down are their search engine. Gmail, GTalk and Android services will not be affected. Again, they may want to do it like the way Bing does, which does not host servers inside China. The page simply intercepts CN IP calls and Simplified Chinese requests, and then censors it. Microsoft is not clear if Bing is censored or not. There was an alleged claim they were, then Microsoft said they're not, but won't that get censored? So I'm not sure what the real situation is with Bing. In any case, Google does not appear secure about their search engine in China and might want to shut it down anyway to prevent any theft of the source code, and operate much like the way Microsoft already does with Bing. Or Google can simply outsource the Search with a Chinese company like Yahoo does with Alibaba. Google maybe going to the same direction as Microsoft does with its Chinese operations, which appears to be utilizing China as a major brain-talent-code farm.

6. I read from a blog that Google China makes more of its money from Chinese companies advertising on the global search page than from within.

7. Examples of censorship. You can't use Mobile Opera browser on your mobile inside China. Rather, you have to use a special Chinese approved version.
 
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Infra_Man99

Banned Idiot
Censorship and shutting down Google doesn't help the Chinese people. Rather, all it does is quite frankly is to chain the full potential of the Chinese individual. Sometimes its hard to understand but even if you don't have a political democracy, you do need a democracy in opinion in order to have checks and balances in the system.

Oh believe me, Google enpowers the Chinese people more than the Great Firewall. For example I know many businesses outside of China uses Google to search for manufacturers and suppliers inside China. By doing so, they provide China business and its people employment. Baidu doesn't do that. Google does. I will get back to this later, about where Google China's real income appears to come from.

You cannot have a stable Internet presence if for example, lets say the SDF is in China. Then someone uploads Tianammen Tank Man picture or a portrait of the Dalai Lama up in one of the posts. Bam! The entire SDF site is censored, and everyone involved suspected of treason. That's basically how the Chinese censorship system works. The guy who probably uploaded the pics probably may not even be a Tibetan symphatizer at all, but a business rival.

This greatly increases the cost of operating a website in China because of continuous monitoring.

I like democracy, but only when its held back by laws, or else democracy turns into mob rule, which is no better than any type of dictatorship.

You do realize the US government silences, investigates, and punishes people who leek US government secrets, right? If SinoDefence leaked secret pictures or videos of US military war crimes, then the website would be shut down and under investigation.

The same is said about ALL governments I can think of, especially Israel. I don't see Google going after Israel's oppression and censorship of Palestine. The US government is involved with Israeli crimes. Interesting how the Jewish founder who allegedly hates oppression sees the plank in China's eye, but he doesn't see the log in his own eyes. However, Jews worship the Torah and the Talmud, not the New Testament. It's a shame, because a non-Christian like me likes Jesus Christ.

Like I said, I am against censorship on all sides, but I don't like hypocrites. If John steals from Jane, Jack steals from Jane, then John reports Jack's theft, then I would treat both John and Jack as thieves. I would not punish Jack while rewarding John. If Mr. Israel violates the human rights of Mr. Palestine, then Mr. Israel sends aid to Mr. Haiti, then Mr. Israel is still a criminal.

I don't mix the positive things and negative things an entity does. I treat the positives and negatives separately, otherwise, we get a moral system based on points. Example: If I do +1000 points of good things, then I could do -1000 points of bad things, and then I am back to neutral. If I save someone's life, then I get to murder someone, and then I am back to neutral morals.

Both China and the US need to admit both of them are wrong, and then work from there to build a new, fair system. Finger pointing is only going to lead to superficial improvements. I don't see this happening right now. Right now, both sides are sizing each other up like its a battle of winners and lowers, when it should be a struggle for justice.

Hardly an objective source.

Pravda is filled with propaganda, but so are American news sites, business sites, government sites, and university sites.

Irregardless, Google does work closely with the US government. Google does officially (probably secretly, too) work with the US government for domestic and international espionage.

What's wrong and what's being asked to do is political censorship---which is ill defined. There is no clear line, where economical and social dissent, like complaints about corruption and Chinese corporations, can be interpreted as political dissent. Especially the collusion of government with corporations, and not just Chinese corporations but all corporations including US ones.


You call that strength? I call that shifting sands. If you understand how to do business, the most important thing about a business environment is clear, distinct laws. Not vague laws that can be arbitrarily used against you after you have made a lot of investment, staked your and your family's financial future. When you have vague laws subject to liberal interpretation by bureaucrats, those bureaucrats can use them against you at whim, forcing you to bed them, creating a cycle of corruption.

The US is filled with specific laws and vague laws. See the Supreme Court and the US Constitution. This legal pattern trickles down to the state level, city level, and town level.

I appreciate the pros and cons of specific laws and vague laws. Laws are just tools. What really matters are the people wielding the tool. That's why you want a good legal team if you do something controversial. A good legal team can bend, break, and/or create laws for your advantage.

Anyhow, I can't stand the legal system in China or the US. I am not a lawyer or anyone with any legal experience, but when I read how the US/Chinese court system fails so many legal cases in public, or legal cases linked to people I know, I don't trust the US/Chinese court system.

The US/Chinese court system can only handle simple problems. Once powerful/rich people are involved or major problems are handled, the court system fails or struggles to uphold justice.

That's BS and a major one. Chinese companies that adapt to China's unique characteristics tend form a business model that inevitably fails elsewhere.


Every finger, from the multiple security companies like Verisign, point and traced the attacks to sites within China. They are of such organization and sophistication that you are you going to put this with some random hacker group?


Google sent their own hackers to break into those servers. That's how they knew it originated inside China. Attempt to break into human right activist accounts probably only a decoy to the real thing, access to Google source code.

Chinese companies have strengths and weaknesses, like all foreign companies. Right now, Chinese international companies are growing stronger faster than Western companies, but Chinese international companies started off a lot later than Western international companies. Read how Chinese companies and Chinese government-corporations are doing well in buying up resources and deals in Latin America, Africa, the Middle East, and elsewhere WITHOUT DROPPING BOMBS. Chinese international deals aren't perfect, and they still need tremendous improvement. Nonetheless, I can "smell" the jealousy, fear, and anger when I read reports from non-Chinese Americans, because they know the Chinese competition is doing more right than wrong.

Like I said again: the US spies on China, and China spies on the US. It's a fact. If both nations want to solve this spying problem, then both sides need to stop acting like hypocrites, and start creating laws that are fair for both sides, and laws that both sides will uphold.


I also know that Western educated Chinese are not likely to get a high position in a Chinese corporation or a government position.

Top Chinese politicians and businessmen have received foreign education for a long time. Mao was a communist, and he learned that from Russia, but Russia is not the West. Deng Xiaoping studied in France or something like that. Mao and Deng, in my opinion, are the most influential Chinese politicians of modern times, and they were deeply influenced by foreign ideas. One of the fathers of China's space program thoroughly learned from America: Qian Xuesen. He recently passed away and China gave him lots of respect. That's only 3 examples, and they're huge. There are hordes of examples, because the Chinese government frantically wants any Chinese person who can truly help China.

If you are intelligent/skillful, if you really care about improving China, and you are Chinese, then you can go to China and the sky is the limit depending on your performance. Unfortunately, not in America or Europe. Europe has always been historically white, so I understand. There is nothing wrong with Europe, China, or the Middle East preserving its ethnic heritage as long as they don't act like Hitler and his Nazis.

America is suppose to be the melting pot, but the dirty secret is that America is still run by the white majority who refuse to yield any significant power. This is totally understandable because no one likes giving up power, but I am just stating facts.

Look at Obama. He is Mr. Change, Mr. Hope, Mr. Model Minority, but his administration has almost the exact same policies as the Bush Administraiton. Obama seems like a puppet every passing month. Across the world, people like Obama as a person but they see that he is FAKE CHANGE as a professional.


Nothing wrong with this. This is called SEO or Search Engine Optimization. This is all public. You assume only US organizations know this? Its everywhere, even Chinese organizations know how to use this.


That's not the point. Simple string analysis and you can make a hit on a deliberate misspelling. Then someone go checks the site himself sees the picture and your site, and yourself, gets red flagged.


GFW doesn't help the Chinese situation, it makes them only worst. How can Chinese people go to these websites and challenge these comments? No. They can't. GFW effectively muzzles them, while the media continue with their rampage. And those who can, ironically, have to use those VPN networks.

Why waste time on propaganda? If I had the option to hang around a liar, I wouldn't. I don't to go CNN news or Fox news. I don't write letters to them. I shut them off and I tell everyone I know to shut them off, because they lie nonstop. If I could, I would send CNN/Fox to court to force them to stop lying and to fix their damages. I can't, though. The US court system already says CNN/Fox can lie, because news sites can blend facts and art. It's up to the viewer to decide what is a fact and what is an art.

Unfortunately, the average American is too dumb to differentiate between facts and art when they watch, "The Most Trusted News," or "Fair and Balanced."

China needs to improve its censorship to attack the real criminals, and to stop attacking innocent people. I am fully aware of China's horrible censorship system.

I am pretty neutral when it comes to China's propaganda and America's propaganda. I dislike both a lot. I want to wipe out both of them at the same time. Otherwise, I would be picking sides.


Where do you get your information? Here is one of them for mine:

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That's like Google is hovering at 40% currently. Bing and Yahoo are almost no factors at all. Baidu is now under 60%.

I get numbers ranging from 15% to 40% for Google and around 60% for Baidu. Nonetheless, I like using various search engines: Clusty, Bing, Baidu, and specialized search engines (Youku, Smotri, LiveLeak, etc.).

I don't like monopolies, so I'm never blindly loyal to any single side.


Off topic, sort of:

I think one of the best things China can do to improve its Internet freedom is to promote open source software. China needs to get as many Chinese as possible to develop various software for their needs. I really don't like China constantly allowing a monopoly or a monopolistic cartel to control China. However, China can only improve so quickly, so I tell myself to be patient.


Anyhow, I am going to stop debating for now because:

1. I have higher priorities to deal with. SinoDefence is taking up too much of my time (for better or for worse).
2. I am more interested in seeing what is actually going on between Google/US government and China, which is difficult because both sides won't stop propagandizing. If something interesting happens, I'll talk about it. Otherwise, I am getting bored of this topic.
 
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pla101prc

Senior Member
this is about as political as an SDF thread gets. but either way google already suckered up and decided to talk...so lets all calm down a bit lol.
 

Infra_Man99

Banned Idiot
this is about as political as an SDF thread gets. but either way google already suckered up and decided to talk...so lets all calm down a bit lol.

I'm not angry, sad, or in any extreme mood. Like I said in a previous post, I like debates. I thanked Crobato for bringing contrasting views (always important for intelligent discussions), and I thanked Red Mercury for similar perspectives (also important for good discussions).
 

Roger604

Senior Member
It's pretty clear that the Chinese government is absolutely right to demand full control over foreign businesses that are in a position of power to gather intelligence in China.

Now we know Google has been plotting a data gathering operation in China with western intelligence agencies.

Net neutrality is dead -- the basic configuration of state sovereignty requires that China control "its" internet -- at least on for security purposes.

But on a totally different note, it's pretty obvious that Chinese censors are overenthusiastic. In the long run, China absolutely needs freer and freer boundaries of acceptable discourse. Ham-fisted censorship underestimate the intelligence and patriotism of the Chinese people! Don't let the minority of fools who may be swayed by western propaganda curtail the freedom of the majority who can easily see through them.
 
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maniacalich

Just Hatched
Registered Member
It's pretty clear that the Chinese government is absolutely right to demand full control over foreign businesses that are in a position of power to gather intelligence in China.

Now we know Google has been plotting a data gathering operation in China with western intelligence agencies.

Net neutrality is dead -- the basic configuration of state sovereignty requires that China control "its" internet -- at least on for security purposes.

But on a totally different note, it's pretty obvious that Chinese censors are overenthusiastic. In the long run, China absolutely needs freer and freer boundaries of acceptable discourse. Ham-fisted censorship underestimate the intelligence and patriotism of the Chinese people! Don't let the minority of fools who may be swayed by western propaganda curtail the freedom of the majority who can easily see through them.

too right mate,this bungling censorship encourages local corruption and bureaucracy,and that's why some of the Chinese choose to be "the minority of fools"
:china:
 
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Engineer

Major
GFW doesn't help the Chinese situation, it makes them only worst. How can Chinese people go to these websites and challenge these comments? No. They can't. GFW effectively muzzles them, while the media continue with their rampage. And those who can, ironically, have to use those VPN networks.
First of all, what's the big commotion with GFW when a lot of people can access information despite the presence of the firewall? We are constantly told (by Western media) that the firewall can be easily thwart through proxy, VPN, etc. but if that is the case why are there so much complains then? Don't you find it contradictory that there is a lot of complains on a fairly useless piece of software?

You might argue that there are people less well versed in computer who might not be able to get over the firewall, but that's just not believable. If people want to get over the firewall, they will find a way to do so. And if they can't do it themselves they will find someone who does. Then there are those that simply don't care even if given the unlimited access to information, firewall or not, and we see those examples all the time. Just look at how many in the West take anti-China propaganda at face value without finding out how much truth there is to the words of Western media.

Secondly, why would Chinese people go to those websites and challenge these comments? Better question still, how does thing usually end up when Chinese people do go to those pages and post their comments? Well, they get censored. If not, then they either get accused of being "communist spies" or being "brainwashed". There is no reason why any sensible Chinese would want to waste his/her time challenging these one-sided and unintelligent comments. And when there are debates, they would occur on Chinese message board, after all English is not the universal language for debates.

Crobato, while I agree with many of your comments against Chinese's censorship, your posts appear to be one-side support for Google. I believe many of us are now having doubts as to your objectivity in this Google-related matter.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Seems like any Chinese activist can be labeled as a Tibetan extremist or activist. Its still not the point. The attacks targeted gmail. That goes right to the very heart of the company---trust. When you established a mail account with Microsoft, Google, Yahoo or your ISP provider, there is a bond of trust, confidentiality and privacy with those mail accounts. Having them broken into could seriously damage that trust.

This is hilarious. If the Chinese government wanted some information out of gmail, apparently they have to hack it. If the US government wanted some information out of gmail, all they have to do is ask.

Or are you not aware of the massive keyword filters that the US government has on any electronic communication inside, and possibly outside, the US?

Do you know what's funnier than any Chinese activist being labeled as a Tibetan separatist? Any disgruntled airport customer who sends a twitter can be labeled, and arrested, as a terrorist.
 

jantxv

New Member
When or how does "cyber warfare" or "cyber attacks" cross that line into a legitimate arm of general warfare? Did Google suffer financial losses due to cyber attacks? Do people actually get harmed in cyber attacks?

During the Cold War, the US did not consider U2 spy flights over Soviet bases as violating their airspace since the plane was at an extreme altitude, like how we view a satellite orbiting over a nation as not really violating that nation's airspace even though that satellite is taking pictures of sensitive areas. In this way, Chinese or American cyber spying can be considered innocent.

However, the Soviets did shoot down a U2 spy plane and fairly recently both the US & China destroyed their own satellites to demonstrate that capability.

Now offensive and defensive terms like cyber attack, Great Fire Wall, Green Dam, and Information Infrastructure are being used daily in a militaristic way. If Cloud Servers are damaged by malicious virus weapons is the result similar to a physical bombing? When attacks are successful or defenses fail, human casualties in the forum of arrests and such can result. Nations and companies spend large sums of money for offensive and defensive cyber capabilities and large sums can be lost in cyber battles. I suppose in addition to a Navy, Army, Airforce, etc, we must now include a kind of cyber offensive and defensive section to this forum to keep up with the times.
 
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