China won Turkey's missile defense competition

SamuraiBlue

SamuraiBlue

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Aster 30 block 1 is called by their manufacturer as SAMP-T、Sol-Air Moyenne-Portée-Terrestre which translates to Sol-Air Medium-Range Ground.
 
Blitzo

Blitzo

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SamuraiBlue said:
Aster 30 block 1 is called by their manufacturer as SAMP-T、Sol-Air Moyenne-Portée-Terrestre which translates to Sol-Air Medium-Range Ground.
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I think that just goes to show the real variability in what "range" really means. The land based Aster 30 block 1 is called a "medium" range SAM, and is also advertised as such, but the naval based Aster 30 with the same range is also described as long range by MBDA.

that said, SAMP/T does "only" have a range of 50km for aerial targets under 3km altitude, so it could be considered medium range in that sense, with a range of 100km for aerial targets above 3km at higher altitude.

Amusingly, the Barak 8 land based version is called MR-SAM by the Indian Air Force, while the naval Barak 8 is called LR-SAM by the Indian Navy...

Military forces and manufacturers will call their products quite different classifications and of course there is no exact cut off point for differentiating between them, especially when we're unsure as to what the target parameters for each manufacturer's data are.
So I stand by my position that LR SAMs should be considered SAMs with a range convincingly in excess of 70km, and MR SAMs between that and about 20km or less. SR or point defense SAMs would be 20km.

Things become further complicated when we bring in offboard targeting -- for instance, SM-6 can leverage longer range compared to its predecessors when it has an E-2D providing midcourse guidance, but if no E-2D is available a surface ship launching an SM-6 will mean that SM-6's range will be more limited... which is why it's also important to differentiate between the range of a missile based on platform and what degree of offboard targeting data may or may not be available.
 
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Dolcevita

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See Turkish perspective for cancellation of the missile deal. Nothing new but it is good to see confirmation on what we already know

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"
In fact, this was precisely the rationale behind the decision to negotiate the procurement of a long-range missile defense system with China.

Turkey was interested not only in the final product but also in the technology, and while the American and European bidders were refusing access to technology, the Chinese company was the one promising technology transfer and joint production.

Turkey wants to increase its home grown technological capabilities, especially in areas of strategic importance such as the defense industry, and Ankara’s decision made sense in this respect. Why cancelling it now?

Reason for the cancellation of the long-range missile defense system bid has not been made public yet, and the only piece of information that appeared in Turkish media was that Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu had made this decision in consultation with the new chief of the armed forces, Hulusi Akar, two days before the G20 summit.

It is also announced that the tender was annulled in toto, there won’t be deal with the American and European bidders either, and Turkey is going to produce its own missile defense system.

While it is not really clear how and with which technology this is going to be accomplished, it is certain that it was not missile economics but missile politics that made Turkey give up the deal with China.

Although the rationale behind the decision to negotiate with the Chinese was purely economic, it had political consequences in the sense that Turkey’s move has drawn strong criticism from its NATO allies.

Ankara has tried to find a compromise by repeatedly extending the deadline and inviting the bidders to revise their proposals, but it did not work out. Although it might seem otherwise on the surface from time to time and politicians’ rhetoric may differ, Turkey values its partnership with NATO, which is especially important at the current moment when security cooperation in the face of developments in Syria and Iraq is becoming vitally crucial.

This is why at the end of the day, Turkey has decided to adopt a policy that would alienate neither side, and go its own way for the missile defense system."
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tphuang

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SamuraiBlue said:
HQ-9 only has a range of 120Km which makes it middle range SAM.
You'll need over 200Km in range like SM-6 to label it as a Long range SAM.
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S-300P had range of 90 km and S-300PMU1 had range of 150 km. S-300 series have been considered long range sam all along.

FD-2000, a particular export version, was shown with range of 125 km. It's not know to the world what is HQ-9's range or the range of the version offered to Turkey.

Either way, the particular designation of medium or long range is not that important here. You seem to be picking this argument just to put down HQ-9. Stop it.
 
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antiterror13

Brigadier
SamuraiBlue said:
HQ-9 only has a range of 120Km which makes it middle range SAM.
You'll need over 200Km in range like SM-6 to label it as a Long range SAM.
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even 120 km is Long RAnge SAM. HQ-9 is well known having over 200km range, but not sure what HQ-9 version is offered to Turkey, perhaps you are right only 120km ... but still LR SAM
 
SamuraiBlue

SamuraiBlue

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If some people want to call it long range even though nations label their own missiles with the same range as mid-range, then go for it.

Just remember for the record, I did not start this quarrel.

As for range it's only good as line of sight in which if a plane or missile goes below then no matter how far a missile can fly as long as the missile cannot communicate with a mid station AWEC/air borne radar to provide telemetry the missile will be no use losing contact.
 
Hyperwarp

Hyperwarp

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SamuraiBlue said:
HQ-9 only has a range of 120Km which makes it middle range SAM.
You'll need over 200Km in range like SM-6 to label it as a Long range SAM.
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Odd, Raytheon, doesn't really give any labels like short, medium, long, ultra-long for their missiles -
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,
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(despite the massive ranges of these missiles)

But, Almaz-Antey puts the 150km Rif-M under
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Edit: Therefore I would like to know where long range missiles are defined as at least 200km max range? Because if so, all Patriot PAC2+, PAC3 short to medium and 180+ km RIM-67C SM-2ER is medium.
 
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taxiya

Brigadier
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SamuraiBlue said:
If some people want to call it long range even though nations label their own missiles with the same range as mid-range, then go for it.

Just remember for the record, I did not start this quarrel.

As for range it's only good as line of sight in which if a plane or missile goes below then no matter how far a missile can fly as long as the missile cannot communicate with a mid station AWEC/air borne radar to provide telemetry the missile will be no use losing contact.
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Regardless how the quarrel began, if you claim "something is short or long" it will help your argument by presenting your defination of short, medium and long with number of km, preferably a table including all the SAM offers in the Turkish bid.

Afterall, "short, medium and long" are relative terms, km is absolute. I do sense that you were trying to belittle HQ-9, so providing the data that I asked for would help you to not to be seen as such.
 
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antiterror13

Brigadier
SamuraiBlue said:
If some people want to call it long range even though nations label their own missiles with the same range as mid-range, then go for it.
Just remember for the record, I did not start this quarrel.
As for range it's only good as line of sight in which if a plane or missile goes below then no matter how far a missile can fly as long as the missile cannot communicate with a mid station AWEC/air borne radar to provide telemetry the missile will be no use losing contact.
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Absolutely you started it by calling HQ-9 MR SAM ... which absolutely wrong. Not sure what is your intentions?, perhaps as what TPHUANG said in post #334
 
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