China to sell weapons to Kenya
- Thread starter mwanamwale
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Semi-Lobster
Junior Member
Woah, woah, woah, I never mean't to insult anything, I'm just saying the benefits of a new airframe would probably be good for Kenya. The wear and tear from decades of service take their toll on an aircraft, both in terms of performance and safety, a new airframe would greatly increase the cost-value ratio of fighter aircraft along with reducing the expensive hours in maintenance required between flights to keep older older aircraft airworthy. The FTC-2000 is NOT just a MiG-21 clone either. Made from composite materials, and modern aircraft manufacturing standards, the configuration of the FTC-2000's double delta wing configuration gives the aircraft a 0.9TWR with the WP-13F engine, additionally, based on its J-7E/G configuration
'The sea-level climbing rate has increased from 155m/s to 195m/s; the ferry range has increased from 1,500km to 2,200km; the G limit has increased from 7g to 8g. The maximum instantaneous turn rate of the J-7E is 25.2 degree/sec, and the maximum sustained turn rate at 1,000m altitude is 16 degree/sec. According to CAC’s advertisement, compared with the J-7B, the overall aerodynamic performance of J-7E has increased by 43%, and the combat effectiveness has increased by 84%.' The most important factor though is an increase in internal fuel capacity to 4,165kg. All of these numbers can be greatly improved as well with the use of the more powerful WP-14 engine. I have read some Pakistani reports (I know, a bit biased but still worth reading) that the the double delta configuration gives their F-PG excellent dog fighting capabilities comparable to those of the F-16. China also provides a wide range of capable radars for smaller fighter aircraft and many companies in Europe such as Firo have developed radar systems for both the F-5E that are also capable of being used in the J-7. The current radar is already offered for export with the Italian Grifo S-7, the same radar used by the FC-1/JF-17 fighter aircraft. All of this for around $10 million or less
Earlier I said that the most critical thing to consider is internal fuel capacity. There is more to 'BVR' than just firing off a missile. To properly engage a target using a MRAAAM, one must first attain the proper altitude required to take full advtange of of the thinner air at higher climes and heights, thus giving the pilot a clearer radar readings above the 'clutter' of lower altitutdes and giving the missile itself greater distance as less drag is put on the missile than it would at lower altitudes. The Old MiG-21, MiG-21Bis and even older J-7s have great difficulty in ascending and decending from these heights. Even the F-5E only carries 2,563 L of internal fuel. Jordanian F-5E's for example have been equipped with the advanced AN/APG-67 radar but still are not BVR capable aircraft.
Most countries nowadays are looking for replacements for their aging F-5E fleets. Taiwan is actively attempting to gain more F-16s to replace its last three squadrons of F-5. South Korea is developing the F/A-50 fighter from its T-50 trainer to replace its F-4/F-5s. Thailand and Indonesia are replacing its last upgraded F-Es with Gripens, Switzerland is currently has a tender open to replace its F-5E fleet. Chile will be complete in replacing their upgraded F-5Es this year with F-16s. Greece, Malaysia and the Netherlands have already retired their F-5Es as well. Also the US is very finnicky about who it will sell the AIM-120 to. For example, the US sold Taiwan 144 F-16s... but less than a 100 AIM-120 missiles for all of them. One cannot assume that a delivery of aircraft will also net the buyer a large number of missiles as well. The US keeps a very close on eye on who it supplies or inthis case, who its supplies who then supplies someone else.
As for the Cheetah, it was just a suggestion, namely a political expedient one between Kenya and South Africa that may have been cheaper than upgraded F-5Es, I never once said the Cheetah was infact, better than an upgraded F-5E.
As for the FC-1/JF-17. Its all rather simple, the FC-1 is the Chengdu and Chinese designation for the aircraft while JF-17 is the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex designation for the aircraft. They're exactly the same. Just as the FC-10 is the export designation fo the J-10, FBC-1 is the export name of the JH-7, or the F-7 series is jut the export designation for the J-7 series.
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Semi-Lobster
Junior Member
Thank you for your reply, although the timezone difference makes conversing slightly difficult, but I guess thats one of the wonders of the internet
.First off I think we have to clear something up,the FTC-2000 uses a DOUBLE delta wing configuration, not a straight delta configuration wing. The Double-delta configuration creates usable airflow effectively giving the aircraft the benefits of a modern LERX, giving the new wings retain an existing leading-edge sweep angle of 57° inboard but have reduced sweep angle of 42° on the outboard wing, which also has a leading-edge flap fitted. This design offered an excellent solution to the inherent low aspect ratio problem of a slender delta. The slighting larger wingspan and 8.17%. This GREATLY improves the maneuverability ofthe FTC-2000 andas I have stated earlier, has been favourably been compared to early F-16 variants (compared to the F-7PG). Almost all Pakistani pilots have been quite surprising by the dogfighting abilities of the F-7PG and its high AoA. To compare its performance of even flight characteristics to the basic MiG-21bis would not be accurate at all. Additionally, obviously logistics are a concern but the FTC-2000 is designed as an international aircraft, many of its components are off the shelf technology, its radar, avionics and weapons systems can be tailored to whatever the buyer's specifications require from it but indeed, in the long term, things such as the Chinese engine would require Chinese assistance which would be more expensive than existing infrastructure set into place for the F-5E. Chinese maintenance routines are more efficient that its Russian counter-part though in comparison.
So far, no MICA missile has ever been equipped to an F-5 and as such, is not a very cost effective solution. As you have stated the Brazilian F-5EMs are equipped with the Derby MRAAM, but you also said yourself in a previous post that the Derby has a rather lacklustre range. And if this were only to be an interim solution, then how many Derbys would Kenya have stockpiled once the AIM-120s arrive, depending on how long that woud take of course. As for the Sky Flash... when did Kenya aquire the Sky Flash? I don't believe I have read anything about that.
On the issue of replacing the F-5E, indeed, (obviously) there are planning to replace them with more capable aircraft but attrition is one of the biggest factors. Some of the aircraft being replaced are 30-40 years old. The lifespan of an airframe can only be extended so many times before it simply gives in. This is an important factor and can be seen in Turkey's very selective about which F-5Es still have enough life left in them to be worth upgrading. Turkey has bought over 200 F-5s but out of that 200, only 43 so far have been seen as cost-effective to upgrade to F-5 2000 standards.
I think you're overstating minutia between the JF-17 and the FC-1 but that information but it certainly was the first time events have been 'interpretated' such as that. There was not two parallel projects from China and Pakistan. The aircraft was designed from the outset (well beginning in 1992) to an extremely customisable, affordable fighter aircraft for export and was designed by the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group to be so, particularly for the Pakistani market. On the Pakistani side, it was merely shopping for western avionics for the already. Both use the RD-33 engine powered aircraft. Alongside the same engine, the FC-1 and JF-17 will share the same radar (KLJ-7), cockpit configuration, and weapons systems (PL-12/SD-10, PL-8, PL-9 etc. etc.). Currently, the only JF-27/FC-1s that exist are ther small batch sent to Pakistan from Chengdu last year and have not entered service yet.
Speaking of the JF-17/FC-1, the Grumman assisted 'Super-7' project was only a 'loose' inspiration, and far exceeded the original goal of the project (to have an upgraded replacement for the PLAAF's aging J-7B/C/D variants). Chengdu continued this project resulting in the J-7FS and then the J-7MF, a highly upgraded modernised J-7 variant with a solid nose, chin mounted intake, pulse doppler radar etc. etc. but the project was quietly cancelled in favour of the FC-1 a few years ago. Many speculate that with the cancelation of the J-7MF project, a few Chengdu engineers found work at Guizhou which would explain the rapid development of the JL-9/FTC-2000, and makign the JL-9/FTC-2000 the 'true' inheritor of the Super-7 lineage.
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Semi-Lobster
Junior Member
nice time Risai
and about the Derby it was chunu..... idea not mine i stand with the Derby.
See ya, it's been fun albeit tiring (like I said, these timezone differences are a real headache sometimes
)I'm happening to be focusing on the FTC-2000/JL-9 because its newly built, very cost-effective ($5-8 million cheaper than the JF-17/FC-1, at about ~$9-10 million each), based on an aircraft with a good track record and a modular, western-friendly armament payload that can be aquired as a fighter and a trainer. I'm not involved with any stuff like that though, I'm just a political science university student, so in other words, very much the amateur compared to guys like tphuang or crobato who really know their stuff! Kenya, of course, has a options beyond China anyways to bolster its air force, but not too many countries are focusing on the 'low' end markets these days so I'm just shedding some light on an often overlooked aircraft for a role it could be suited for. The F-5 is still pretty viable in my opinion, and can certainly act as a deterrent, especially for the excellent price Kenya is paying for them (around $630000 each approx.).
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Semi-Lobster
Junior Member
Umm.... none of the images seems to work in that thread? But I have seen some pictures already though of the original Super-7
Semi-Lobster
Junior Member
Sorry Risai for the late reply, I'm pretty sick and have been for the past several days. I can seem to find the picture anymore, I must have lost it in my recent hard drive reformat but I'll keep looking