China pleased after observing "Valiant Shield"

tphuang, exactly what I told MSNBC producer like two days ago:


The United States wants China’s military to reciprocate the access Washington has given the Chinese to American exercises and bases, senior Pentagon officials told Congress on June 22.

And it turns out that China has invited USA in the past... 2003 and 2005, one was excercise with Russians and I am not sure about the other.

As for port visits, I remember reading about a US missile frigate or something visiting a Chinese port and playing ping pong with their counter parts. I'm sure there are plenty of visits. There have also been joint naval exercises with France and England in the past.

It's nothing new that the Chinese are interacting more with other militaries.

The operation was the largest in the pacific in more than 30 years. Around 30 warships with 3 carriers. B-2 and more than 280 warplanes were involved which flew over 1,000 sorties.

I dont think the PRC has any reason to be embarassed. It would be like high school football players going to watch a pro-game and being embarassed. The High Schoolers just dont have the capabilities of the Pro football team and serve more as entertainment purposes in watching. I dont think the PRC learned anything other than just how "badass" the american war machine is because the PRC cant take what it observed and apply it operationaly in its force structure because it does not have three aircraft carriers or for that matter one.

but you know, its nice to dream.....cheers ute

This is one of the most positive and optomistic threads I have read since I joined this forum...

I hope this excersise and future ones foster a spirit of co-operation between the US and PRC.

utelore anology about football is perfect. But soon enough those high school boys will be in college..next the Pros....Probaly in the next 10-15 years..

bd popeye said:

I hope this excersise and future ones foster a spirit of co-operation between the US and PRC.

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So do I. It's the best way for the two countries ensuring they don't come to blows over issues like Taiwan. Not so much that saying the US wouldn't get involved, more that the PRC would not feel so threatened by the US naval prescence in the Pacific that it would feel the need to sieze control of Taiwan for security reasons.

Popeye, I would classify the PRC on a pro-level when it could project enough combat power to launch a successful invasion of say Yemen or Argentina. This would require the PRC to have one or two carriers to gain air supremacy over the theater of battle and then project enough marines, army and airborne troops to secure the country for a extended period of time. I think the PRC is on the verge of this logisticly however they have a long ways to go in projecting air assets over a country thousands of miles away seperated by ocean. I also think the non-local large scale amph operations skill set is still in that 10-15 year time frame.

With the new U.S carriers and amph warships that will be coming on line with the U.S navy I think even trying to put the PRC even in the same catagory or comparing them to the U.S will NEVER happen. I mean if you look at the only carrier the PRC has any hope to field within the next 5 years and try and compare it with just one older U.S carrier and the PRC vessel is horridly outmatched. Then you look at the newer CVN-21 that will come to a sea near you in 2014. Lets face it the U.S navy is a monster that just cant be touched. You can compare armys and maybe airforces but you just cannot compare the U.S navy to anything on the planet. I mean the U.S navy could sink every navy on the planet even if they were unified within a matter of days and that is a fact.

Striking the US maybe quite difficult without the use of an intercontinental missile. Trying to bypass the US navy unless you are landlocked with the US is quite difficult. China does not even approach Imperial Japan in invasion like methods when it comes to crossing great distances.
But Chinese forces have quickly developed the means to deal with naval threats approaching China as far away as Guam.

yes I totally agree the PRC wold be best served to gain the ability to project power hundreds of miles from the mainland then work its way outward. The geopolitical and military ramification of the PRC being able to dominate Asia through land based aircraft would serve it well for dealing with Taiwan.

I just dont see how having a older refit russian carrier the operates a dozen or so modern fighters is going to help the PRC out with furture military objectives. I think if they used it as a Amph warfare platform with that new attack helocopter that would be great.

I mean the Falklands War on the British behalf was carried out by a task force of two carriers and their escorts, and logistically there was one or two main LPH kind of ships and the RN had to rely on a number of civilian freighters to support the invasion during the course of the conflict.

Apart from the aircraft carrier issue, China probably could have pulled off a Falklands invasion (or some other small scale naval conflict some half way around the globe. China has the modern escorts (18 destroyers and 18 frigates by 2008 that could be considered capable of defending themselves from air attack...10 destroyers and 2 frigates (Type 054A) that could provide more effective medium to long ranged air defense and ASW). Even though we all know Falklands was fought in 1982, it is to be noted that not every British warship escorting the carriers were armed with SAM (or only for very short ranged air defense), and that all British ships at that time lacked some sort of CIWS or even automatic AA guns as advanced as contemporary Chinese Type 730, AK630 or Type 76F type of AA artillery.

Logistically, the PLAN has 5 fleet replenishment tankers, operates several large logistical assets that can support submarines and surface ships, and the civilian freight has an incredible number of large assets that could lift huge loads. Of course, my personal view is that the Yuting and Yuting II class are limitedly capable of ocean operations if accompanied with a tanker...afterall US LSTs were able to conduct operations in WW2 in the far stretches of the Pacific.

Lets say...in any event of a global crisis NOW, PLAN if it was determined or politically inclined to, could very well deploy its 2x 052B, 2x Sovremenny, 2x 052C, 2x 054 and another 2x Jiangweis...+ 2-3 tankers in support operating as a task force...not to mention with one or two Han SSN support (though that is assuming Hans were only used for NON-ASW operations, but nonetheless any submarine is a dangerous beast). This force could easily project power as far as New Zealand...and a follow up task force with civilian tankers, freigther ships, LSTs, etc, could follow to transport the necessary troops and their equipments. (lets say PLAN could ship up to one marine brigade in deep ocean).

Of course, this is completely assuming A) it is like the Falklands war B) the opponent has an inferior navy C) the opponent's air force is small, has only limited AShM capability D) not all of the opponent's navy or air force was deployable E) the opponent's submarines are inferior or small in number F) the ground forces that the marines would be engaging is only a small contingent

Bottom Line...in a situation like the falklands, an island which was far from the UK and kind of far from the Argentine mainland (far enough so that not all of Argentina's military assets could be deployed), PLAN could quite well deploy a task force and a follow up assault. So if there was an island dispute far from China and lets say, far from Japan, both sides would probably have an equal footing in terms of air power projection and around-the-world fleet deployments.

However even so, the RN in the Falklands had its two carriers. Though there were only 20 Harriers between them, these aircraft were almost invaluable and won air superiority over the larger Argentine air force. The carriers and amphibious platform also serve well in carrying large numbers of helicopters that supported ASW and transport operations, not to mention airborne early warning.
But even though the Argentinian Navy only operated a small number of submarines, one sub on several occassions presented a real danger to the RN fleet, and these 'submarine zones' had to be avoided, which greatly delayed operations.
The RN's SSNs at that time were probably technologically inferior to the refitted Chinese Han of today. But the RN SSN that sunk the Argentine cruiser was attacking a ship that had no helicopter or good ASW sensor on board, nor was she properly escorted by ASW frigates. The same window of opportunity will probably not be made, with ships carrying new sensors and weapons fo ASW. So Han, while having its capabilities of operating deep in oceans, is quite a vulnerable submarine (but better than having no submarine).

In conclusion...

If we did look at it like a falklands operation, PLAN could pull it off.

However PLAN lacks the following that would enhance its task force's power projections:

1) Aircraft carrier (even if it was only small and carried around 20 combat aircraft/helicopters)
2) Without long range bombers and MPAs (which the RN had in the Falklands as the Nimrod with in flight refuelling), it loses its ASW coverage.
3) a dedicated amphibious LPD platform.
4) in a modern war, long range land attack cruise missiles
5) modern SSN, as 093 is still not in full production.
6) mine warfare...no dedicated ocean going minesweeper (as T-43 is old) and aircraft carrier or LPD probably needed for a helicopter towed mine sweeping operation.

However we can look at the bright side

1) PLAN has the logistical means...civilian ships and LSTs that can operate far from home if need be.
2) Though not all its fleet is 'modern', the available number of modern ships is more than enough to form a capable long range task force
3) PLAN has made significant strides in fleet replenishment, with two new additions.
4) It has SSNs...not all navies enjoy this luxury.
5) Its newest destroyers are quite capable of providing fleet air defense for the task force.
6) latest combatants have CIWS which greatly improves their defense against incoming munitions.


Weighing up the facts...I personally think PLAN is at a stage that it could quite well deploy a task force of surface warships with one or two SSNs and a number of auxilaries to the other side of the Pacific or Indian Ocean. Though this task force is probably well equipped to defend itself from air attack and could achieve naval supremacy on the surface, it is weak in ASW and its ability to project air power to win air supremacy. This is of course all assuming too that PLAN task force would be facing an inferior foe.

Last point I want to make: Despite PLAN having these assets, one issue of the task force concept...IT JUST HASN'T BEEN PRACTISED BY PLAN BEFORE!!!!

chicket sez..

Last point I want to make: Despite PLAN having these assets, one issue of the task force concept...IT JUST HASN'T BEEN PRACTISED BY PLAN BEFORE!!!!

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Chicket your composition was well written. You get an "A"+..and I won't take off any thing for spelling!

As for your last statement. You are 100% correct. They have done nothing yet. Not a thing.

In such an operation the PLAN better have some logistics in operation and the force must realize that they have one chance to do it right. Simply because of the logistics involved and lack of foward bases to suppourt an operation such as this.

As far as "Valiant Shield" is concerened. The PLA learned this...We ain't got nuthin' like that. The US side is a well oiled machine. We've(PLA) come a long way in recent years but still have a long way to go.

Eariler I asked some one to post an article from the PRC media about the "Valiant Shield" the operation. I would love to read the Chinese view of the operation. In English of course!!!! Besides I want to post it in my yahoo groups.