China need a new geopolitical Doctrine ?

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AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Yes starting an illegal war based on lies of WMDs in Iraq is completely okay... Ironic, the lie out there that all those countries judging China over Hong Kong had no problems when they supported an illegal war. Yes let's leave that out so they can continue the lie that they're clean and ethical. And the EU wanted to punish China just because China didn't make the same mistake.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
That's because this forum caters to a relatively narrow base of members that don't represent the full diversity of opinion.

In reality, if you listen to the Americans, even the most hawkish like Mike Pompeo say they have no problem with the Chinese people, only the actions of the CPC. And having lived in America I can guarantee that this is true from what I have heard from Americans in everyday life. But don't listen to words, look at actions:

If the US is so against China, why did it establish diplomatic relations with China knowing it was the most populous nation in the world and very capable, and one day could become a wealthy competitor? Why did it allow China to export trillions and earn capital and FDI from the US and its partners? Why did it give China MFN trade status every year, welcome China into the WTO and the Multi-Fibre Agreement? Why did it sit by for 35 years as China rose to become the world's largest economy by PPP?

America did all that because it welcomed China's rise under the expectation that China would become a liberal democracy and a responsible stakeholder. And it would have continued to welcome China's rise if China had not thwarted its expectations.

They always said that but we all know it is con job. CCP is chinese people They are only in power because of the consent and support of Chinese people It is fallacy to separate Chinese people from .The latest survey prove that CCP has the overwhelming support of Chinese people.

All Anglo Saxon are born actor and actresses They say nice thing in front of you but they say other thing behind your back. So don't believe what they say

No US Doesn not help China out of the good heart Nixon pivot to China because he want to weaken Soviet Union and play the China card which result in Soviet Union break up and they want to do the same thing with China by prodding China to open up and democratize so as it easier for them to insert the trojan horse and instigate regime Change But to their chagrin and disappointment the CCP prove to be tougher nut to crack.

US and the west are interested in opening access to Chinese market for their product and service But the Chinese stymied their effort and give them run for their money instead they learn from their expertise and use to compete succesfully again US multi national

China does not owe US or the west anything for the economical progress since the reform started Both come very late in investing in China. Heck they even boycott China after TAM
Actually up to 1990 Overseas Chinese from diaspora is the main investor in Chinese economy They are the unsung hero fo Chinese reform. They have been investing in China since 1960.
Agregrately they have invested in China more than trillion dollar easily they underwrite the Chinese reform

Even today Singapore and not US is the largest investor in China 3 years in running. Very few people know the role of Singapore in Chinese reform. DXP draw his inspiration after visiting Singapore and had heart to heart talk with LKY He was looking for a model for Chinese reform and very much impress with what Singapore did here is a Chinese society that is successful, orderly and wealthy
In 1985 China officially ask Singapore for help in drafting the regulation for SEZ that latter become the template for China wide reform. Singapore send dr Goh Keng Swee with his team to help China He stay in China for 7 years,Dr Goh is the architect of Singapore miracle. Latter they set up training program for mid level government official As of 2018 there are 30,000 Chinese official that went thru the program still going strong until now Prompting then Chinese vice premier to thank Singapore and said it is priceless
 

escobar

Brigadier
I'll just pile all of this garbage together since it's the same thing, doesn't mean anything, and is, of course, empty of all counter-argument. You don't see virtue and you don't see substance. Blind man telling others what to see LOL
Empty repeated claim with no evidence to support and complete inability to rebut my statements. More garbage...

Why i should care about more counter-argument if you can't even grasp the simple one i already say ?

You can repeat your unsupported claims and incorrect conclusions all you want but you cannot escape being proven faulty by me each time. I am, without a doubt, more educated than you and it shows in the substance of my posts against the emptiness of yours.

Proven fault ? is it a joke ou you really believe that ? Living in a buble.

If I were you, I would also be uninterested in being repeatedly proven wrong and humiliated by me.

Oh i see. You feel better because you think i'm humiliated. You find your identity in that. That is why your are dull and uninteresting

At least I don't try to see events that have not even happened to try to feel better, like you do.

For the one who already see China becomes more powerful and the US, it is a funny statement. Lol

Well, when it comes to India, China got land and concessions, but it never escalated with India; it simply fought back a physical attack. China even did many things to de-escalate despite its absolute advantage over India in every measure. When it comes to the US, the escalation is substance-based instead of aggression-based and has gotten China's economy and technology to continue to close the gap with America's. In terms of results, China is becoming powerful at a rate that is far faster than either India or the US and that is a result of flexible strategy and opportunistic/adaptive approach. Results and substance are what I'm all about. Shouting and volume are all that you are about. Until you can improve your thinking to my level, you will not understand.

It is so boring how you can have those double contradictory thoughts an still think you are coherent but keep on going

So this calmness is weakness, but then when China reciprocates sanctions, that's weakness too? LOLOL How hypocritical...

You don't even know that some reciprocals sanctions could just show weakness ? You don't know difference between calmess based on strength and calmess based on weakness. Keep showing your low level IR policy understanding

As time goes on, China becomes more powerful and the US weaker in comparison.

You really love repeat that like many here. It has become a sort of mantra for you. You don't even know what it reveal about you.

Already now, the US cannot achieve its objectives stunting China. Who should be calm and who desperate to ignite problems? I know that thinking is not your forte, but try very hard; this problem is not terribly difficult, I promise...

I'am the one saying from the start that CHina should not overacting on every issue. So you are not saying anything new.

Your hypocrisy is clear. When China does not respond, it is too weak to escalate. When it responds with equal force, it is incompetence. You don't have a solution and don't know what you want to see; you only like to criticize. I can say this is probably and inconsequential person trying to make himself feel better.

So, Responding with equal force is now a proof of competence? Another inep thought.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Here is good article that debunk the myth of CCP is bad but Chinese people is good
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

The ‘Communist Party evil; Chinese people good’ myth

The notion that there is a neat division between the ruling party and everyone else in society is enticing

by
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
July 10, 2020



China-Military-Parade-70th-Anniversary-Commuist-Party-e1570520214354.jpg

A float featuring the Communist Party of China passes through Tiananmen Square in Beijing during the parade to celebrate the 70th anniversary of the founding of the People's Republic of China. Photo: AFP Forum via Sputnik / Anna Ratkoglo



Writing in mid-March, Josh Rogin, a columnist for The Washington Post,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
the importance of pushing back against Beijing’s rewriting of the history of the coronavirus crisis, but not in a way that fuels racism against Chinese citizens or Asian-Americans, something still pertinent four months on.

“The key to accomplishing both goals is to separate the way we talk about the Chinese people from the way we talk about their rulers in Beijing,” Rogin wrote.
Echoing the views of many academics and commentators around the world, he said, “We must all be specific in blaming the Chinese Communist Party for its actions. It was the CCP that hid the virus outbreak for weeks, silencing doctors, jailing journalists and thwarting science.
“The Chinese people are heroes in this story. Chinese doctors, researchers and journalists risked their lives and even died fighting the virus and warning the d.
“The Chinese are also victims of their own government’s draconian measures, which caused massive extra suffering.” In short, he concluded, “Our beef is not with the Chinese people. Our problem is with the CCP.”

One cannot be sure how pervasive such a view is. But the “CCP bad, Chinese good” sentiment appears common. Having lived in or reported from many authoritarian countries, I know the notion that there is a neat division between the ruling party and everyone else in society is enticing.
Moreover, when trying to defend a group from racism, one walks a fine line between defense and patronizing. Often that group is instead held up as perfect and infallible, though without responsibilitfor their actions.
This thinking is problematic, though. Take Li Wenliang, the late Wuhan doctor and “whistleblower” who is now regarded as something of a “dissident” by some in the West because of his revealing of information about the coronavirus that causes Covid-19 before his death in early February.
He was no doubt someone Rogin had in mind when he wrote about the “heroes in this story.” Yet he was a member of the CCP since university. A great number of China’s most famous and coherent dissidents were once party members, too.
As Kerry Brown, professor of Chinese studies and director of the Lau China Institute, noted in an
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
for Oxford Political Review back in April, “for the great supporters of a neat division between Party and population, the thorny issue is that the Party is part of society, and its members are, unsurprisingly, more often than not typical Chinese people.”


He went on, “The Party deliberately sets out to integrate and reach deep into society. The most prudent thing one can say about the relationship between the two is that they are very complex.”
And he added, “And if you want to start deploying language like ‘evil’ about the Party, then you are going to have to start labeling a good number of Chinese people that way too. Party members are Chinese people, after all, not some separate species.”

While there are a tiny minority of some 3,000 senior party apparatchiks, there are around 90 million members of the CCP, according to estimates. But this doesn’t tell the whole picture of how not only the CCP pervades all areas of society, but also of how hundreds of millions of people are directly or indirectly tied to its fate.
Aside from the apparatchiks, there are millions of scientists, technicians, economists, academics and other experts who advise the government.
Added to this are the academics, journalists, editors commentators whose job is to defend the party. Indeed, the party apparatus and the sweeping bureaucracy are increasingly drawn from the ranks of urban, middle-class and university-educated, many of whom most probably don’t share the party’s ideology but know opportunistically or realistically that working with it is the only way to get ahead in life.

Many of the heroes of China’s economy also owe much to the party’s patronage. And then there are the tens of millions of ordinary people who have been lifted out of poverty and offered the promise of prosperity because of the CCP’s guardianship of the economy.
Yet this throws up another problem. Just because so many Chinese people are tied to the fate of the CCP, it doesn’t mean it is the legitimate representative of the Chinese people, given there has been no free election in China for decades, and certainly not since the creation of the People’s Republic in 1949. It is impossible, as a result, to conclude that the Communist Party is, first, popular, and, second, the legitimate representative of the Chinese people.

But this reasoning comes with a logical conclusion that many commentators do not want to concede: The Chinese people will never have a legitimate government until there is either true democratic reform or regime change in Beijing. In this case, those of us who believe that China must have a democratic future must not battle with China, but for China.
Kerry Brown blushes at this. He writes sarcastically of the “heroic statement that we, outside of China, with our enlightened ways, are those who will be key in delivering this salvation. We are on our way. Freedom is nigh.”


One shouldn’t be so skeptical, however, about expressing the moral certitude of the democratic world, not just by Westerners, but also people from China’s neighbors like South Korea, Japan and, dare one say, Taiwan. Arrogance is wrong, but moral relativism is worse.

Yet if one does wish for democratic change in China, then the sort of thinking that “our beef is not with the Chinese people; our problem is with the CCP,” as the columnist Rogin put it, is counterproductive.
Like it or not, most tyrannical states don’t fall from the noble and courageous protests of ordinary citizens. The Soviet Union wobbled because of a decades-old mismanaged economy, but it finally crumbled after Moscow refused to put down protests in the Warsaw Pact nations, an attempted military coup flopped, leaders in the Socialist Republics on the USSR’s periphery broke away, such as those in the Baltics, and then the center caved in when Boris Yeltsin called for Russian independence.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Why i should care about more counter-argument if you can't even grasp the simple one i already say ?
Because what you said is understood by no one as it is nonsense. You cannot understand me but I still counter everything you say just so other readers know how inferior you are at debate.

Proven fault ? is it a joke ou you really believe that ? Living in a buble.
No joke. Everyone who likes my comments know what I'm talking about. We are all in the same bubble and you are free by yourself, right? LOL You have no common sense because you have no reality checks...

Oh i see. You feel better because you think i'm humiliated. You find your identity in that. That is why your are dull and uninteresting
It's my hobby embarassing trolls like you. Lots of people find it interesting (check my ratings) but of course the troll doesn't. Deer don't enjoy the hunt like lions do ;)

For the one who already see China becomes more powerful and the US, it is a funny statement. Lol
I think you have me confused with someone else again... I'm the person who said that it is very difficult to compare national power and find equality or whatnot but seeing American desperation, it shows that China is in a better position to grow and likely to surpass the US.

It is so boring how you can have those double contradictory thoughts an still think you are coherent but keep on going
It is boring how you cannot understand my English so you cannot progress in the argument. I assure you, the problem is not mine.

You don't even know that some reciprocals sanctions could just show weakness ?
It is not a matter of strength or weakness but a natural reflex. I would not have made a judgement either way since the sanctions on both sides are pointless. But with your argument, calmness is weakness and reciprocation is also weakness, which makes you incoherent.

You don't know difference between calmess based on strength and calmess based on weakness.
Surely I do. If your country is becoming stronger and its goals are being achieved like China, then your calmness is based on strength. If you just lost 20 soldiers but don't dare escalate a military conflict like India, then the calmness is based on weakness. USA has no calm cus it's freaking out about its future.

Keep showing your low level IR policy understanding
Yet everyone finds it much higher than yours...

You really love repeat that like many here. It has become a sort of mantra for you. You don't even know what it reveal about you.
You are far repetitive here than I am. I always debunk your arguments and you just repeat them again without support.

I'am the one saying from the start that CHina should not overacting on every issue. So you are not saying anything new.
You cannot define what is overreacting and you also don't know what China should have done even though "nothing" and "recirpocate" both seem like weakness to you because you have no idea what to do.

So, Responding with equal force is now a proof of competence? Another inep thought.
From above:

It is not a matter of strength or weakness but a natural reflex. I would not have made a judgement either way since the sanctions on both sides are pointless.
 

zgx09t

Junior Member
Registered Member
That's because this forum caters to a relatively narrow base of members that don't represent the full diversity of opinion.

In reality, if you listen to the Americans, even the most hawkish like Mike Pompeo say they have no problem with the Chinese people, only the actions of the CPC. And having lived in America I can guarantee that this is true from what I have heard from Americans in everyday life. But don't listen to words, look at actions:

If the US is so against China, why did it establish diplomatic relations with China knowing it was the most populous nation in the world and very capable, and one day could become a wealthy competitor? Why did it allow China to export trillions and earn capital and FDI from the US and its partners? Why did it give China MFN trade status every year, welcome China into the WTO and the Multi-Fibre Agreement? Why did it sit by for 35 years as China rose to become the world's largest economy by PPP?

America did all that because it welcomed China's rise under the expectation that China would become a liberal democracy and a responsible stakeholder. And it would have continued to welcome China's rise if China had not thwarted its expectations.

Unfortunately, a head case wild utterance doesn't qualify as a part of that diversity. A head case argument only belongs to a rubber room, with proper long-term medical care and intervention.

You better quote Trump, or Jared. Mike Pompeo is busy shining Jared's shoes. He needs to press Jared's socks later so look up something Jared said to quote.

All because US couldn't afford to miss China's opportunity. Regardless of US coming onboard or not, the train was leaving the station. Money started pouring in anyway.

Look up what MFN actually means. It's something like a jumbo shrimp, a misnomer.

What are you even talking about? There's no such sentiment in geopolitics.
 

jimmyjames30x30

Junior Member
Registered Member
Here is good article that debunk the myth of CCP is bad but Chinese people is good
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

The ‘Communist Party evil; Chinese people good’ myth

The notion that there is a neat division between the ruling party and everyone else in society is enticing

by
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
July 10, 2020



China-Military-Parade-70th-Anniversary-Commuist-Party-e1570520214354.jpg

A float featuring the Communist Party of China passes through Tiananmen Square in Beijing during the parade to celebrate the 70th anniversary of the founding of the People's Republic of China. Photo: AFP Forum via Sputnik / Anna Ratkoglo



Writing in mid-March, Josh Rogin, a columnist for The Washington Post,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
the importance of pushing back against Beijing’s rewriting of the history of the coronavirus crisis, but not in a way that fuels racism against Chinese citizens or Asian-Americans, something still pertinent four months on.

“The key to accomplishing both goals is to separate the way we talk about the Chinese people from the way we talk about their rulers in Beijing,” Rogin wrote.
Echoing the views of many academics and commentators around the world, he said, “We must all be specific in blaming the Chinese Communist Party for its actions. It was the CCP that hid the virus outbreak for weeks, silencing doctors, jailing journalists and thwarting science.
“The Chinese people are heroes in this story. Chinese doctors, researchers and journalists risked their lives and even died fighting the virus and warning the d.
“The Chinese are also victims of their own government’s draconian measures, which caused massive extra suffering.” In short, he concluded, “Our beef is not with the Chinese people. Our problem is with the CCP.”

One cannot be sure how pervasive such a view is. But the “CCP bad, Chinese good” sentiment appears common. Having lived in or reported from many authoritarian countries, I know the notion that there is a neat division between the ruling party and everyone else in society is enticing.
Moreover, when trying to defend a group from racism, one walks a fine line between defense and patronizing. Often that group is instead held up as perfect and infallible, though without responsibilitfor their actions.
This thinking is problematic, though. Take Li Wenliang, the late Wuhan doctor and “whistleblower” who is now regarded as something of a “dissident” by some in the West because of his revealing of information about the coronavirus that causes Covid-19 before his death in early February.
He was no doubt someone Rogin had in mind when he wrote about the “heroes in this story.” Yet he was a member of the CCP since university. A great number of China’s most famous and coherent dissidents were once party members, too.
As Kerry Brown, professor of Chinese studies and director of the Lau China Institute, noted in an
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
for Oxford Political Review back in April, “for the great supporters of a neat division between Party and population, the thorny issue is that the Party is part of society, and its members are, unsurprisingly, more often than not typical Chinese people.”


He went on, “The Party deliberately sets out to integrate and reach deep into society. The most prudent thing one can say about the relationship between the two is that they are very complex.”
And he added, “And if you want to start deploying language like ‘evil’ about the Party, then you are going to have to start labeling a good number of Chinese people that way too. Party members are Chinese people, after all, not some separate species.”

While there are a tiny minority of some 3,000 senior party apparatchiks, there are around 90 million members of the CCP, according to estimates. But this doesn’t tell the whole picture of how not only the CCP pervades all areas of society, but also of how hundreds of millions of people are directly or indirectly tied to its fate.
Aside from the apparatchiks, there are millions of scientists, technicians, economists, academics and other experts who advise the government.
Added to this are the academics, journalists, editors commentators whose job is to defend the party. Indeed, the party apparatus and the sweeping bureaucracy are increasingly drawn from the ranks of urban, middle-class and university-educated, many of whom most probably don’t share the party’s ideology but know opportunistically or realistically that working with it is the only way to get ahead in life.

Many of the heroes of China’s economy also owe much to the party’s patronage. And then there are the tens of millions of ordinary people who have been lifted out of poverty and offered the promise of prosperity because of the CCP’s guardianship of the economy.
Yet this throws up another problem. Just because so many Chinese people are tied to the fate of the CCP, it doesn’t mean it is the legitimate representative of the Chinese people, given there has been no free election in China for decades, and certainly not since the creation of the People’s Republic in 1949. It is impossible, as a result, to conclude that the Communist Party is, first, popular, and, second, the legitimate representative of the Chinese people.

But this reasoning comes with a logical conclusion that many commentators do not want to concede: The Chinese people will never have a legitimate government until there is either true democratic reform or regime change in Beijing. In this case, those of us who believe that China must have a democratic future must not battle with China, but for China.
Kerry Brown blushes at this. He writes sarcastically of the “heroic statement that we, outside of China, with our enlightened ways, are those who will be key in delivering this salvation. We are on our way. Freedom is nigh.”


One shouldn’t be so skeptical, however, about expressing the moral certitude of the democratic world, not just by Westerners, but also people from China’s neighbors like South Korea, Japan and, dare one say, Taiwan. Arrogance is wrong, but moral relativism is worse.

Yet if one does wish for democratic change in China, then the sort of thinking that “our beef is not with the Chinese people; our problem is with the CCP,” as the columnist Rogin put it, is counterproductive.
Like it or not, most tyrannical states don’t fall from the noble and courageous protests of ordinary citizens. The Soviet Union wobbled because of a decades-old mismanaged economy, but it finally crumbled after Moscow refused to put down protests in the Warsaw Pact nations, an attempted military coup flopped, leaders in the Socialist Republics on the USSR’s periphery broke away, such as those in the Baltics, and then the center caved in when Boris Yeltsin called for Russian independence.

Very cunning article. Full of classic Anglo-Saxon wiles. Thumbs up, every one!
 

zgx09t

Junior Member
Registered Member
Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi called for de-escalation at the opening of the China-U.S. Think Tanks Media Forum last Thursday

Wang Yi doesn't do trade. What he said is part and parcel of his job, a general statement with reconciliatory tone.



It will be absolutely hilarious if I'm talking to the same person with different user names.
 

Sleepyjam

Junior Member
Registered Member
That's because this forum caters to a relatively narrow base of members that don't represent the full diversity of opinion.

In reality, if you listen to the Americans, even the most hawkish like Mike Pompeo say they have no problem with the Chinese people, only the actions of the CPC. And having lived in America I can guarantee that this is true from what I have heard from Americans in everyday life. But don't listen to words, look at actions:

If the US is so against China, why did it establish diplomatic relations with China knowing it was the most populous nation in the world and very capable, and one day could become a wealthy competitor? Why did it allow China to export trillions and earn capital and FDI from the US and its partners? Why did it give China MFN trade status every year, welcome China into the WTO and the Multi-Fibre Agreement? Why did it sit by for 35 years as China rose to become the world's largest economy by PPP?

America did all that because it welcomed China's rise under the expectation that China would become a liberal democracy and a responsible stakeholder. And it would have continued to welcome China's rise if China had not thwarted its expectations.
The US was using the China card against the Soviets, they didn’t know China would become such a strong competitor today if they had know they wouldn’t have done so(they have always underestimated China). As for trade there is a lot of money involved the rich and elites in the US has substantially profited from the rise of China.

America does not care about the Chinese people, when Han Chinese were being murdered by terrorists they didn’t care they sided with the terrorists. It’s not just China looking at other countries, look at Iraq, Libya, Ukraine, Iran and so on. They don’t care, death and suffering of innocent civilians do not matter to these people.
 

Nobonita Barua

Senior Member
Registered Member
That's because this forum caters to a relatively narrow base of members that don't represent the full diversity of opinion.
In reality, if you listen to the Americans, even the most hawkish like Mike Pompeo say they have no problem with the Chinese people, only the actions of the CPC.
So naive & cute. Almost unbelievably naive.
Let me tell you whose "opinion" matters.
Last time an US president came here, i was 10 feet away from the room he & Prime minister was sitting. The people whose "opinion" matter are those who are in charge. The "people" are not in charge.
Do you want proof?

There are 2 massive hole in your assertions.

1. None of U.S , and i mean ,NONE , can have any problem with any faction of Chinese. The logic "Some mikee is having problem with that xyz Chinese dude over there " is hilarious & laughable. Mikee should keep his feelings to himself unless he wants those feeling to be shoved up his ***

2. To even open the "opinion" box, you need to use your brain a little bit more. Because it will open the great Pandora's box.
If "some member don't" represent full diversified opinion" regarding china, some particular countries being lackey to U.S doesn't make it global leader either.

So by going your logic, to determine the legitimacy of existence of The United States NOT OF AMERICA & to determine if U.S should be a global leader, i am asking for global vote, no government, no party, no forces. BY PEOPLE OF THE GLOBE .LIVE around the world, everybody will watch.
Do you agree? Say tomorrow 10 AM sharp?

Or did you figure out that U.S is a illegitimate child of previous colonizing empires hiding it's identity behind some utopian values?Trying to leader of a globe that doesn't want them?
You can't only ask for opinion/vote on matters you control & avoid "democracy" on the matter you don't like. That doesn't sound very fair. So let's start with the champ, what say?

I know how west works, last time there was a general election, Awami govt won by self voting themselves. Some euro "independent observer" came here who reported the election to be "fair" . You need far more than those naive little sentences to fool people.

A request, just tell pompeo that, the school he graduated from , taking degree on lying & cheating courses, the headmaster of that school was student of the college we were founding member of. So,tell him to just chill.
 
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