China need a new geopolitical Doctrine ?

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Weaasel

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That's because this forum caters to a relatively narrow base of members that don't represent the full diversity of opinion.

In reality, if you listen to the Americans, even the most hawkish like Mike Pompeo say they have no problem with the Chinese people, only the actions of the CPC. And having lived in America I can guarantee that this is true from what I have heard from Americans in everyday life. But don't listen to words, look at actions:

If the US is so against China, why did it establish diplomatic relations with China knowing it was the most populous nation in the world and very capable, and one day could become a wealthy competitor? Why did it allow China to export trillions and earn capital and FDI from the US and its partners? Why did it give China MFN trade status every year, welcome China into the WTO and the Multi-Fibre Agreement? Why did it sit by for 35 years as China rose to become the world's largest economy by PPP?

America did all that because it welcomed China's rise under the expectation that China would become a liberal democracy and a responsible stakeholder. And it would have continued to welcome China's rise if China had not thwarted its expectations.


The United States established diplomatic relations with China and US companies invested in China because it was financially profitable to do so, because of the largest domestic market and also a largely stable and competent government. There was additionally the element of strategic opportunity vis a vis the Soviet Union, which at the time was a mutual adversary of China and the United States. With regards to the economy, given the example of US allies Taiwan and South Korea, US observers and analysts within and outside of the state, knew that a competent authoritarian state was capable of effectively and greatly modernizing when it pursued market oriented policies under state guidance. But the US was also betting that increased prosperity would eventually bring about demands for liberal democratization which the Communist Party would concede to.

The 1980s saw the collapse of Communist Socialism as an economic system and various revolutions in Europe in Europe toppled various Communist Parties in the European Communist Block. This eventually culminated with the disintegration of the Soviet Union. The West and the United States in particular were highly triumphalist that their political ideology, Liberal Democracy, and their economic ideology, Market Capitalism had worked. In the late 80s China was also greatly infected with the bug of Liberal Democracy as was demonstrated with the rallies at Tiananmen Square, which grew ever more extremist in their demands and eventually began to demand the overthrow of the CPC right there and then. To so many educated youth of the time, the West and the United States in particular were so heavenly that they believed that rapidly implementing liberal democracy would even further accelerate the already very rapid pace of socio economic progress that had already begun following Deng's market oriented reforms of 1978. Additionally, Gorbachev was implementing Glasnost and Perestroika within the Soviet Union and was being feted in the West for doing so, so the idealistic pro Western youth believed that it was right. In combination with Taiwan's democratization and the agitation for democracy in South Korea, which itself eventually held elections in 1987, there was a greatly potent effect among many, especially impressionable educated youths, that Liberal Democracy was absolutely the right thing and the only legitimate way of government. Needless to say, back then, and even now many or most in the West, especially the United States believe that.

But the Communist Party of China had NEVER and has NEVER promised liberal democracy. What it promised and has promised was and is there will steady and even fast socio economic development, technological and industrial modernization, and improvement of living standards for the vast majority of the population, while through merit, any Chinese citizen has the chance of rising through the ranks of the CPC, influencing governing policy, and not only becoming a member of the CPC Politburo Standing Committee, but the Chairman of it and the President of China himself or herself. But one has got to compete with others and show competence to have merit in various administrative posts. Obviously this is not perfect, but by and large, the CPC, which is effectively not a separate entity from the government of China, is meritocratic, and has definitely succeeded so far in raising many hundreds of millions out of absolute poverty, great improving socio economic levels of the citizens in general, despite significant regional and urban vs rural disparities, as well ad brought technological and industrial modernization to China at least to a moderately high level. With regards to its application of public infrastructure in terms of telecommunications and transportation, China is absolutely top notch, ranking better than most Western countries. Electricity infrastructure has also recently reached excellent levels.

The West believed that following the Tianamen Square Massacre, that CPC would never regain the legitimacy that they believed that it had lost in that incident. But still there were many in the West who were circumspect about it, and they understood it in several ways. Firstly, China was not the Soviet Union, it was not a collection of various nation states that had been brought together mostly through conquest and a little bit of ideology within less than half a century. The Chinese elites regarded themselves as different from the West, while the Soviet elites did not entirely do so. China was not ready for democracy at the time and needed to develop further to embrace it. Lastly, even back then, while the prevailing view was that China would eventually democratize as living standards improved, there were commentators in the West who cautioned against whether that would happen at all or if it did happen it would take decades even if China reached living standards comparable to those in the West, because the CPC, would likely still be in power and the CPC had and has consistently said that China would not liberally democratize. THIS LAST SENTENCE IS PARTICULARLY TELLING AND VERY IMPORTANT, BECAUSE TOO MANY AND EVEN MOST CHINA ANALYSTS IN THE WEST REFUSED TO LISTEN TO IT: THE CPC NEVER PROMISED LIBERAL DEMOCRACY.

Finally under Xi Jinping, most Western analysts and commentators have finally given up their fantasy that China, the Chinese elites, the Chinese people, and the much talked about Chinese Middle Class want to be like the West and want to adopt the political systems and also the social mores of the West. China does want to be like the West in terms of socio economic development and technological and industrial modernization, and has to a great extent achieved that, and in certain respect arguably surpassed the West, but China and the Chinese people do not want to copy prevailing Western political systems and societal mores remain generally more collectivist and with an emphasis on the duties and responsibilities of the citizen towards the collective, wider society, and the state, rather than an emphasis on the rights of the individual as is especially the case in the United States more so than it is in most Western countries.

Americans who still gripe about China not having democratized and China not being grateful to US contributions to China's development as through investments by US companies and US permitting China's accession to the WTO were thoroughly naive. China has intrinsic attractiveness to foreign investment because of its population size, but it is the Chinese state's management and guidance of its political economy far more than anything that the US and the West have done that is responsible for its developmental state and stature today. Believe me that the Americans would not at all be complaining if China just allowed Western multinational companies to take over the majority of China's state and privately owned enterprises and also dictate the financial flows into and out of China. That is in particular what the most capitalistic Republicans would like to see happen, but they themselves know that it won't happen.

Americans and Westerners who are unhappy at China's developmental and political state today and are surprised that it is at is today have themselves to blame for their naivety and their refusal to look at the facts of development and governance in China through the years and listen to the CPC's repeated proclamations during the entire time from 1978.
 

nastya1

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Registered Member
Soviet's cold war with US led west lasted a long time, more than 40 yrs and it had allies of entire slavic bloc and central asia. I wonder how long the current cold war of China against US and its allies would last?
Yes China developing faster but US's calculation is its easier to sabotage and undermine than to develope.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Her is excellent article by John Lee about the role of overseas Chinese play in China's economic development In 1995 Australian government publish a 350 pages report on the role OC play in China economic development.
After TAM western gov put in place embargo on China but the OC basically broke the back of that embargo
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The Chinese diaspora’s role in the rise of China
14 September 2016
Author: John Lee, Canberra

In 1995, Australia’s Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade published a 350-page report on overseas Chinese business networks, calling them ‘one of the main forces driving the dynamic growth that characterises the region’. This interest reflected the economic clout of the then 50-odd million diaspora Chinese — living mostly in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau and Southeast Asia. In the early 1990s this diaspora was described as rivalling Japan as a
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, with a collective wealth comparable to China’s GDP.


People celebrate the Chinese Lunar New Year in Chinatown in New York, 8 February, 2016. (Photo: Reuters/Brendan McDermid).


China’s stupendous growth since the mid-1990s has overshadowed the diaspora, but this only obscures its key enabling role in China’s rise. ‘Diaspora’ is of course a reductionist term that elides the variation among overseas Chinese in history, outlook and circumstances — most
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.

But those who are have played a pivotal role in developing China’s export industries, and mediating its economic integration with the region in ways that have allowed China to grow fast while retaining key features of its pre-1979 political economy. As such, the diaspora has effectively given China a resource unavailable to any previous rising power.

From the outset of China’s economic reform era, diaspora Chinese have provided the lion’s share of inward foreign investment. This has been concentrated in export-oriented sectors, driving growth of transnational production networks that today bind China’s neighbours to it through
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. But this outcome was not pre-ordained. In the 1980s, China was still a capital-poor country, racked by political battles over the direction of economic reform.

During these uncertain years, diaspora investors were more persistent than their foreign competitors in China, relying on cultural and ancestral ties to offset political risk. They also directly shaped the reform debates: diaspora entrepreneurs served in the Chinese People’s Political Consultative Conference and the National People’s Congress, cultivating relationships
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.

They influenced the conception and implementation of special economic zones (SEZs). And the technology and capital they sunk into these SEZs powered the take-off of China’s export industries, weighing the political scales in favour of continued liberalisation and opening.( Here is where Singapore play vital role)

Diaspora investment revitalised the Chinese private sector’s flagging ‘township and village’ enterprises, and underpinned a national balance of payments that allowed importation of capital goods to upgrade the wider economy. It more than compensated for the fall-off in Western investment during the post-Tiananmen years, when China’s growth dropped to levels creating fears of a recession. Billions in international loans to China had been frozen, and US presidential candidate Bill Clinton was promising to tie annual renewal of China’s ‘most favoured nation’ (MFN) trade status to progress on human rights.


By 1994, China’s economy had turned around to become the region’s most exciting growth story. US business interests pressured then president Clinton to
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and renew China’s MFN status, ensuring that the US market would become an engine of China’s rise.

China’s ability to grow at double digits while retaining a huge and inefficient state-owned sector, a closed capital account and an underdeveloped financial system was made possible by building an export machine based on foreign investment. Cumulative inward FDI from 1979 to 2000 equalled a third of the GDP in the latter year — over half this money came from Hong Kong alone, and over three quarters from East Asia, mostly from diaspora Chinese.

The foreign-invested export sector played a key role in shifting China’s economic position within the region. China went from a net capital importer with wages half the ASEAN average, to an economy that today has wage levels twice the ASEAN average, and is the largest growth source of regional FDI.

The importance of inbound FDI to China has dropped over the past two decades, with the foreign share of investment
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. Yet nearly three quarters of this money still comes from Hong Kong, Taiwan and Singapore, with Taiwanese companies dominating China’s export production. As FDI into China from non-diaspora sources has grown, Hong Kong and Singapore have become intermediary hubs, leveraging their British-derived legal systems and separation from mainland Chinese jurisdiction.


As China’s economy evolves, the diaspora’s interactions with it are adapting. Hong Kong, Singapore and Taipei are now
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while continuing to shelter its economy behind capital account controls, an importance that is likely to increase given
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post-Brexit. Singapore’s government and private firms are substantially involved in China’s push for more sustainable and sophisticated development, for example through the
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and the
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.

Southeast Asia’s ethnic Chinese, who still
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, are significant investors in China and middlemen for other actors’ business. For instance, an
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of Indonesia’s commerce with China involves Chinese-Indonesians, despite being concentrated in sectors — infrastructure and natural resources — in which they are not major owners.


Another factor that is hard to quantify, but which some argue that China
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, is the effect on opinion towards China of the high degree of Chinese ancestry in some ASEAN countries, particularly among elites. The most prominent example is
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, but this legacy can manifest in some
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.

Today the diaspora is increasingly augmented by first-generation migrants from the PRC, and China itself is moving towards a more knowledge intensive economy with ever denser cross-border interactions. The changing nature of overseas Chinese communities and their relationship to China is a subject that deserves further exploration, not least due to the growing
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.

John Lee is a former Visiting Fellow at the Mercator Institute for China Studies.
 
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hullopilllw

Junior Member
Registered Member
That's because this forum caters to a relatively narrow base of members that don't represent the full diversity of opinion.

In reality, if you listen to the Americans, even the most hawkish like Mike Pompeo say they have no problem with the Chinese people, only the actions of the CPC. And having lived in America I can guarantee that this is true from what I have heard from Americans in everyday life. But don't listen to words, look at actions:

If the US is so against China, why did it establish diplomatic relations with China knowing it was the most populous nation in the world and very capable, and one day could become a wealthy competitor? Why did it allow China to export trillions and earn capital and FDI from the US and its partners? Why did it give China MFN trade status every year, welcome China into the WTO and the Multi-Fibre Agreement? Why did it sit by for 35 years as China rose to become the world's largest economy by PPP?

America did all that because it welcomed China's rise under the expectation that China would become a liberal democracy and a responsible stakeholder. And it would have continued to welcome China's rise if China had not thwarted its expectations.

If the US is so against China, why did it establish diplomatic relations with China knowing it was the most populous nation in the world and very capable, and one day could become a wealthy competitor?
- Because US did not want China to align too closely with the Soviet Union during the Cold War period. And no, US did not realised back then that China is a highly capable nation nor believes it will become wealthy one day to be playing on the same strategic level as the US.

Why did it allow China to export trillions and earn capital and FDI from the US and its partners?
- Because US Dollar is the main settlement currency, and most of the surplus will, in one way or another, be reinvested into the US debt market to further hold up the Dollar status as the main reserve currency.

Why did it give China MFN trade status every year, welcome China into the WTO and the Multi-Fibre Agreement?
- Because American firms need to maximise profit, to do that they need to exploit relatively cheap labour that can scale production to meet demands. China sacrificed the wellbeing of her people, her environments in order to earn pennies, allowing American companies to max out their earning margin when selling to the world market.

Why did it sit by for 35 years as China rose to become the world's largest economy by PPP?
- Because US sincerely never did believe that the China in 1970s can grow into anything near to what she is today. Maybe max as a India-level player. It is only after the Lehman Brothers crisis that CIA started noting how China's manufacturing output surpassed the US, the first time US lost the throne in 100 years. Not long after that Hillary and Obama started the Pivot to Asia doctrine to contain China.
 

vesicles

Colonel
America did all that because it welcomed China's rise under the expectation that China would become a liberal democracy and a responsible stakeholder. And it would have continued to welcome China's rise if China had not thwarted its expectations.

You think politicians/political parties/governments will happily yield their position of power to others, as long as this rising power shares the same ideals? Well, go and read Mary Trump's book about what Trump did to grab power in his own family and what he did to his own siblings and his own father. This is his own family and they share more than just ideals, they share blood. Just look at what the Republicans and the Democrats are saying and doing to each other in the US. Different strategies to undermine their opponents, to limit the power and interests of their political opponents... Listen to what Trump has been saying about the Democrats, and vice versa. These are the things Americans are doing to Americans. Look at the American civil war. These are Americans vs. Americans. In the civil war, often times, you get brothers, fathers and sons, on opposite sides and fighting to death on the battle field. Again, they share blood, yet are willing to kill each other. Just ask a Trump supporter what would happen if Biden wins the election. Most will tell you that would be the end of America and they would rather die to see that happen. Does it sound familiar? Isn't it what the Americans are saying about the Chinese? Ask a liberal about what would happen if Trump wins his re-election. They will tell you the US will collapse with another 4 years under Trump.

What you believe only exists in a perfect world, but doesn't exist on earth and is actually against human nature. No one, I mean no one, will yield their position of power. Nor should they. Let me say it again. No one SHALL yield their position of power. This very competitive spirit is what is driving this world forward. A competition between China and the US is actually a healthy thing for the entire world. In the mouth of an American politician, his political opponent is the reincarnation of the devil himself and anyone who follows his opponent is selling their souls to the devil. You will continue to hear the Chinese and the Americans say the worst things about each other. Just like an American politician will device the most cunning strategies to win an election, the Americans and the Chinese will come up with various strategies to undermine each other, to maximize their own interests.

Remember Winston Churchill's famous saying, we have no lasting friends, no lasting enemies, only lasting interests. When your interests are threatened by even your own family, you will fight. That's only human nature. It's not about ideals, all about interests. Trump is actually laying it all out there. As he said, China is hurting the American interests and he would not allow it anymore. So it's never about democracy and freedom. It's all about interests.

Oh, by the way, when you say "liberal" democracy, half of the American people will curse you. At least 40% of Americans consider themselves conservatives, as in the opposition of anything liberal.
 
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AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
That's because this forum caters to a relatively narrow base of members that don't represent the full diversity of opinion.

In reality, if you listen to the Americans, even the most hawkish like Mike Pompeo say they have no problem with the Chinese people, only the actions of the CPC. And having lived in America I can guarantee that this is true from what I have heard from Americans in everyday life. But don't listen to words, look at actions:

If the US is so against China, why did it establish diplomatic relations with China knowing it was the most populous nation in the world and very capable, and one day could become a wealthy competitor? Why did it allow China to export trillions and earn capital and FDI from the US and its partners? Why did it give China MFN trade status every year, welcome China into the WTO and the Multi-Fibre Agreement? Why did it sit by for 35 years as China rose to become the world's largest economy by PPP?

America did all that because it welcomed China's rise under the expectation that China would become a liberal democracy and a responsible stakeholder. And it would have continued to welcome China's rise if China had not thwarted its expectations.


Quit with your romanticized propaganda. I would hear growing up all the time how there are black people and then there are n-words. That's code for all the blacks that know their place are black people. The ones that don't know their place meaning don't accept abuse are the n-words. So guess who are good Chinese versus those that are communist? More black and white thinking where they think they're the goods guys and those that don't blindly obey their every whim must be the bad guys. Why wouldn't the good obey the good...? Unless your evil. Yeah just because there are Americans that "like", all sudden China has to surrender and let the US take over China. You're the one that points to how so many countries hate China. Now all of sudden a glimmer of being liked means China must trust and surrender to the US. Why don't you get your propaganda points straight. You're contradicting yourself.

The US establish relations with China to counter the Soviet Union. And when the Cold War was over, the US turned it's focus against China. Another lie thinking the US cared to invest money. US corporations as they do today seek to exploit and make every penny they can. Don't try to make the US trying to exploit the Chinese first as cannon fodder for the US against the Soviets and exploiting slave labor out to be altruistic acts.

Again the US rejected Hugo Chavez, the democratically elected leader of Venezuela, because he wasn't pro-US. Under the guise of democracy there are hopes to get a pro-US regime in China that will blindly obey the US. The communists don't offer that possibility.
 
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supercat

Major
In light of the recent landmark Chinese public opinion survey, which found that Chinese citizen satisfaction with their government increased virtually across the board over a 13 year period, I think it's time to debunk the West's favorite false dichotomy of "CCP evil; Chinese people good".

First, the survey:
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Why the "CCP evil; Chinese people good" meme is a myth:
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davidau

Senior Member
Registered Member
If the US is so against China, why did it establish diplomatic relations with China knowing it was the most populous nation in the world and very capable, and one day could become a wealthy competitor?
- Because US did not want China to align too closely with the Soviet Union during the Cold War period. And no, US did not realised back then that China is a highly capable nation nor believes it will become wealthy one day to be playing on the same strategic level as the US.

Why did it allow China to export trillions and earn capital and FDI from the US and its partners?
- Because US Dollar is the main settlement currency, and most of the surplus will, in one way or another, be reinvested into the US debt market to further hold up the Dollar status as the main reserve currency.

Why did it give China MFN trade status every year, welcome China into the WTO and the Multi-Fibre Agreement?
- Because American firms need to maximise profit, to do that they need to exploit relatively cheap labour that can scale production to meet demands. China sacrificed the wellbeing of her people, her environments in order to earn pennies, allowing American companies to max out their earning margin when selling to the world market.

Why did it sit by for 35 years as China rose to become the world's largest economy by PPP?
- Because US sincerely never did believe that the China in 1970s can grow into anything near to what she is today. Maybe max as a India-level player. It is only after the Lehman Brothers crisis that CIA started noting how China's manufacturing output surpassed the US, the first time US lost the throne in 100 years. Not long after that Hillary and Obama started the Pivot to Asia doctrine to contain China.

Bravo. trump the liar, hypocrite, racist and his gang try to maliciously smear China in any way with idiotic and manic accusations, from sticking its nose in China's internal affairs, eg South China Sea, Tibet, Hong Kong, Xinjian and so on.. to unfairly banning China's big 5G powerhouse and recently Tiktok etc. Its excuse is national security. When you think of it, everything and anything is and can be national security. .water, oil, paper, food, and so on.

trump's government is bent on suppressing China because she is rising economically and militarily, fast. trump & gang can not stand it and will do anything to get re-elected. Fat bloody hope!

Did you hear from a recent live video what ex CIA Pompeo said: "CIA teach them to lie, to deflect blames, never tell the truth.... " That is what makes a top US Secretary! and he claimed to be a Christian!?

US is waning, China is rising and no force can stop 1.4 billion unified people. trump and gang will fail utterly & miserably.
 
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hullopilllw

Junior Member
Registered Member
In light of the recent landmark Chinese public opinion survey, which found that Chinese citizen satisfaction with their government increased virtually across the board over a 13 year period, I think it's time to debunk the West's favorite false dichotomy of "CCP evil; Chinese people good".

First, the survey:
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Why the "CCP evil; Chinese people good" meme is a myth:
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Actually the US State Dept policy planner is still weighing whether it is possible to split the Chinese people and the Chinese gov using issues like human rights and free speech. And in case they decide the "divide and conquer" strategy is not going to work out, then they might as well destroy entire China. Kanina Kiron Skinner gave it away a few years ago.

The world is destabilising, not due to China's rise, but primarily due to the US' unacceptance of others' rights to rise.

According to a video of her speech released by the forum’s organizer, the think tank New America, Skinner said:
When we think about the Soviet Union and that competition, in a way, it was a fight within the Western family.
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was a German Jew who developed a philosophy that was really within the larger body of political thought ... that has some tenets even within classical liberalism …
You could look at the Soviet Union, part West, part East, but it had some openings there that got us the Helsinki Final Act

The Helsinki Final Act was signed by the Soviet and Western blocs in 1975 to reduce Cold War tensions. 35 nations agreed to respect human rights and territorial integrity. It led to the founding of the Moscow Helsinki Group in 1976, which monitored rights abuses in Soviet Union. The group is still operating in Russia.
in 1975. It was a really important Western concept that opened the door really to undermine the Soviet Union, a totalitarian state, on human rights principles. That’s not really possible with China. This is a fight with a really different civilization and a different ideology. And the United States hasn’t had that before ...

It’s also striking that it’s the first time we will have a great power competitor that is not Caucasian.




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