China need a new geopolitical Doctrine ?

solarz · Jun 8, 2020

Mohsin77 said:
Regarding the question of China's 'image' or power-projection problem, I'll give a friendly outsider's perspective... I think there is a confusion in the way China projects its image to the rest of the world, because there is confusion in how China perceives itself. If China stops being confused about itself, the rest of the world will stop being confused about China. Case in point:

That is a mistake. It is not "undue" at all. It's because America is the last standing house of a civilization which conquered the planet at one point, including both yours and my civilization. We are typing in English here, not Mandarin (even on a 'Sino' defense forum.) We measure our dates by the solar Christian calendar, even though we aren't Christian. You are half communist, half capitalist, which equals 100% European. I lived in China for a year and it was still hard to find the original 'China' within China.

I hope you understand that I'm not saying this to be disrespectful, but so that you fully understand the magnitude of the problem you are facing. Consider this as the perspective of a civilization that is friendly towards China, but the perennial nemesis of 'the West.' We have been at war with them since our birth, for fourteen hundred years, so we have some perspective on this issue. The 'image' problem that China faces is that it is seen as a derivative of the West, because it adopted westernism, in order to compete with the West. That's not necessarily a criticism... We get it. You did it because otherwise you would be exactly where we are today, at the bottom of the food chain. You decided to bite the bullet and go through a painful 'cultural revolution.'

China has reaped benefits of this (with the associated costs), but it still saddens us that China decided to go that route, just as I'm sure it enrages and confuses the rest of the world why we Muslims refuse to do the same. (We chose to sink in a 'dark age' instead, with all its associated costs. Ironically, that is exactly what the West decided to do in its own medieval era.) China on the other hand, decided to adopt Western principles, and is now on the verge of exceeding the West economically and militarily, but it seems like it can't lead the world culturally until it solves the confusion about its own identity... That's the perception.

But nevertheless, we wish China success in its competition with the US, and hope it finds a way to break out of the 'encirclement.' Unfortunately, we aren't yet strong enough to help much at this point, but at least China has indirectly benefited from the fact that for the past 20 years the US has been wasting time (and trillions of dollars) 'crusading' against us, just like its forefathers.

What do you equate with "Westernism"? Modern medicine? Scientific methodology? Republicanism? Gender equality? Higher education?

I don't see these things as "Westernisms" and I don't see the need for China to offer alternatives to them. Those are advancements for the whole of humanity.

Mohsin77 · Jun 8, 2020

solarz said:
What do you equate with "Westernism"? Modern medicine? Scientific methodology? Republicanism? Gender equality? Higher education?

I don't see these things as "Westernisms" and I don't see the need for China to offer alternatives to them. Those are advancements for the whole of humanity.

I definitely do not equate the Scientific Method with 'westernism' because Ibn al-Haytham created that centuries before their Renaissance. As for examples of Westernism, I provided an example of economic principles, which is important for the entire ecosystem of the planet. The systematic rape of the seas, rainforests and the atmosphere is a result of 'westernism.' You mentioned republicanism, but a purely material communism is also just as western as the 'corporation.' There are many other examples but this topic requires a whole other thread/discussion.

solarz · Jun 8, 2020

Mohsin77 said:
I definitely do not equate the Scientific Method with 'westernism' because Ibn al-Haytham created that centuries before their Renaissance. As for examples of Westernism, I provided an example of economic principles, which is important for the entire ecosystem of the planet. The systematic rape of the seas, rainforests and the atmosphere is a result of 'westernism.' You mentioned republicanism, but a purely material communism is also just as western as the 'corporation.' There are many other examples but this topic requires a whole other thread/discussion.

Well I don't see China advocating the systematic rape of the environment. In fact, China is on the forefront of the development of green technology.

I'm not sure what you mean by economic principles, but the Chinese leadership was not ascribing to any ideology when they liberalized the economy. As Deng put it, they were "crossing the river by feeling the stones". China today is a market economy that is driven by state policies, pretty much a unique model that not even China itself is certain can be replicated in other countries, so it would be a far stretch to say China was following the Western model of development.

Republicanism is not about communism. The "Republic" in both the People's Republic of China and the Republic of China stands for the democratization of the nation. No longer does the country belong to one emperor or another, it now belongs to all the people of China. I do not think that is solely a western value, I think that is a great stride forward for humanity.

Even Communism in China is adapted to Chinese characteristics. The CCP was raised to power by the peasant class, not the proletariat class as Marx advocated. After a brush with the disastrous Great Leap Forward, the CCP began exploring other means of building the nation, resulting in the liberalization mentioned above.

That, in essence, is what China does. It takes outside influences that are valuable and makes it Chinese. Did you know that the traditional Chinese garment, what kids today call "Hanfu", came from northern nomads and was adapted for Chinese use during the Warring States era more than 2000 years ago? Did you know that the traditional Chinese dances came from central asia during the Tang dynasty? And for course, Buddhism, one of the three major religions in China, came from India.

Perhaps as an outsider, you struggle to understand China's identity, and perhaps for some young Chinese who are torn between the mainstream culture of their residence and the culture of their birth, they also struggle to understand the Chinese identity. However, that is not because China itself is struggling for an identity, but because the Chinese identity is so strong and so pervasive that it is difficult, if not impossible, to summarize it in a few paragraphs. What is certain though, is that you will find very, very few people inside China with an identity struggle. If you do find some, it will likely be among those ethnic minorities that grew up in a Han majority culture.

Mohsin77 · Jun 9, 2020

solarz said:
Perhaps as an outsider, you struggle to understand China's identity

Exactly. That's my point. Like I said, that's the "perception." You can argue that this perception is wrong, but that would be besides the point. I do struggle to understand Chinese identity, just like many other outsiders, including westerners. Again, this is coming from a person who actually lived in China and is still confused about it, so you can't accuse me of not trying to understand it.

And the reason why I suspect that my confusion is due to your own confusion, is because of answers like this:

"Chinese identity is so strong and so pervasive that it is difficult, if not impossible, to summarize it in a few paragraphs."

If your identity is so "complicated" that it may be "impossible" to articulate, that signifies a deep confusion. A "strong" identity is simply stated, directly and unambiguously, just like a strategy. I think that at its core, identity, just like strategy, has to be simple. Because the more you complicate it, the harder it is to execute, because of the ensuing confusion.

Now, I'm sure there are people (historians, philosophers etc.) who can define Chinese identity unambiguously (e.g. by basing it in Confucianism etc.) I've taken courses on Chinese history in university and I'm sure if I asked that professor, he would be able to give me a simpler answer than you have. That's a problem, because it shouldn't take a professor to answer this basic question. This is a question that everyone in your society should be able to answer easily, without stumbling all over it. Know yourself and know your enemy... That's a lesson I learned from your Sun Tzu, a teacher I cherish very much.

Keep in mind, China isn't the only one with this problem. My civilization also developed a similar problem over time, which accelerated after colonialism. But that's a whole different story. And the West has developed its own identity crises over the past couple of centuries, which has caused serious problems for them as well.

solarz · Jun 9, 2020

Mohsin77 said:
Exactly. That's my point. Like I said, that's the "perception." You can argue that this perception is wrong, but that would be besides the point. I do struggle to understand Chinese identity, just like many other outsiders, including westerners. Again, this is coming from a person who actually lived in China and is still confused about it, so you can't accuse me of not trying to understand it.

And the reason why I suspect that my confusion is due to your own confusion, is because of answers like this:

If your identity is so "complicated" that it may be "impossible" to articulate, that signifies a deep confusion. A "strong" identity is simply stated, directly and unambiguously, just like a strategy. I think that at its core, identity, just like strategy, has to be simple. Because the more you complicate it, the harder it is to execute, because of the ensuing confusion.

Now, I'm sure there are people (historians, philosophers etc.) who can define Chinese identity unambiguously (e.g. by basing it in Confucianism etc.) I've taken courses on Chinese history in university and I'm sure if I asked that professor, he would be able to give me a simpler answer than you have. That's a problem, because it shouldn't take a professor to answer this basic question. This is a question that everyone in your society should be able to answer easily, without stumbling all over it. Know yourself and know your enemy... That's a lesson I learned from your Sun Tzu, a teacher I cherish very much.

Keep in mind, China isn't the only one with this problem. My civilization also developed a similar problem over time, which accelerated after colonialism. But that's a whole different story. And the West has developed its own identity crises over the past couple of centuries, which has caused serious problems for them as well.

Why does an identity need to be simple?
China is a civilization with 5000 years of history, you can't boil that down to a few sentences!

Why does the Chinese identity need to be understood by outsiders? All other nations need to do is read China's foreign policy announcements. If certain nations refuse to believe what China says, that is their problem. The PRC does what it says, and has done so for 70 years. Those who refused to take China's words at their face value did so at their own detriment.

Perception follows self interest. Right now the world is still gravitating around the US, being the most powerful nation yet. However, we are already seeing things change before our very eyes.

free_6ix9ine · Jun 9, 2020

solarz said:
Why does an identity need to be simple?
China is a civilization with 5000 years of history, you can't boil that down to a few sentences!

Why does the Chinese identity need to be understood by outsiders? All other nations need to do is read China's foreign policy announcements. If certain nations refuse to believe what China says, that is their problem. The PRC does what it says, and has done so for 70 years. Those who refused to take China's words at their face value did so at their own detriment.

Perception follows self interest. Right now the world is still gravitating around the US, being the most powerful nation yet. However, we are already seeing things change before our very eyes.

Because without a narrative or identity as too WHY China is better than the US or more suited to lead the World, foreign countries/politicians can't justify their pivot to China even if they wanted to pivot, besides trade economy, etc. But Hard power isn't enough to convince everyone and without soft power you can't effectively counter US fake news and propaganda.

IT absolutely needs to be boiled down to a couple sentences. Do you think everyone has time to study 5000 years of history? Do they even care? When people think about the US. Their slogan and identity is freedom, democracy, etc. EVEN IF we can argue that the US is not living up to their slogan of freedom and whether their democratic system is bad or good. Its still a morally defensible narrative.

What do foreigners think about when they think about China, dictatorship, communsim, censorship, pollution? YES I 1000000% agree American fake news is maligning our country, but we cant hit back because we don't have ANY narrative besides trade.

EVEN IF Germans or Europeans hate Trump and think he is a horrible person. Do you think they would pivot to China? NO because our narrative is even WORSE, because we have none!!

We can point at the US and say they are bad, but we can't say in any way we ARE better. We had more allies when Chairman MAO was alive with socialism because at the very least socialism is something that people can relate to.

So stop arguing and saying people are wrong because they don't understand China. Learn to be self-critical for once and not be blinded by nationalistic jingoism. Because that's not their JOB to do so. People on this forum don't understand anything about image or soft power.

free_6ix9ine · Jun 9, 2020

The US does a lot of horrible things around the world like overthrowing governments and killing innocent people in the middle East. BUT they get away with it because they spin the lie by saying they are doing in the name of democracy or freedom or whatever. China doesn't do any of this horrible evil stuff like bombing innocent people in Syria and Libya etc., but if you ask the vast majority of the world they will have a negative opinion of China because 1) American fake news wants it that way 2) We DON'T have any good counters because we don't have a strong narrative of what values or beliefs our country stands up for that is relatable across cultures

free_6ix9ine · Jun 9, 2020

Cuba and China are not that different in terms of ideology. We are both post communism countries with majority non-white populations, but Cuba markets themselves wayyyyyy better. You hear left wing Democrats like Bernie Sanders praising Fidel Castro for all he has done for social justice, AOC defending cuba on socialism, Obama opening up trade relations, teenagers wearing che Guerra t-shirts etc. YES FOX News still tries to malign Cuba, but Cuba has supporters in the US.

Same thing with Iran who is enemy of Israel, a country that basically controls evangelical support in the GOP and is sworn enemy of the US. But Democrats still feel sympathy for Iran because they are fighting Israel who is an Islamaphobic right wing nationalist Nation.

Russia also had support from the GOP because they are aligned with the GOPs racist and despicable idea of white nationalism. And represent a counter punch to the "libs".

Even these poor countries have support from politicians in the US. While basically the only thing that is bi partisan in the US right now is Cold War with China. So thank you guys for being blindly Nationalistic and getting in the head of Xi jin ping, and pushing us into a Cold War that we aren't prepared for and probably won't win.

free_6ix9ine · Jun 9, 2020

Mohsin77 said:
Exactly. That's my point. Like I said, that's the "perception." You can argue that this perception is wrong, but that would be besides the point. I do struggle to understand Chinese identity, just like many other outsiders, including westerners. Again, this is coming from a person who actually lived in China and is still confused about it, so you can't accuse me of not trying to understand it.

And the reason why I suspect that my confusion is due to your own confusion, is because of answers like this:

If your identity is so "complicated" that it may be "impossible" to articulate, that signifies a deep confusion. A "strong" identity is simply stated, directly and unambiguously, just like a strategy. I think that at its core, identity, just like strategy, has to be simple. Because the more you complicate it, the harder it is to execute, because of the ensuing confusion.

Now, I'm sure there are people (historians, philosophers etc.) who can define Chinese identity unambiguously (e.g. by basing it in Confucianism etc.) I've taken courses on Chinese history in university and I'm sure if I asked that professor, he would be able to give me a simpler answer than you have. That's a problem, because it shouldn't take a professor to answer this basic question. This is a question that everyone in your society should be able to answer easily, without stumbling all over it. Know yourself and know your enemy... That's a lesson I learned from your Sun Tzu, a teacher I cherish very much.

Keep in mind, China isn't the only one with this problem. My civilization also developed a similar problem over time, which accelerated after colonialism. But that's a whole different story. And the West has developed its own identity crises over the past couple of centuries, which has caused serious problems for them as well.

Mohsin, I understand your point view and wholeheartedly agree with it. Thank you for visiting our country and taking the time to learn about it. Some people on this forum are blindly nationalistic and can't take criticism, so I hope you can see that not everyone from China is as toxic as some of the people here. I think China has a problem of marketing itself in a relatable way to the rest of the world, because we have been a self contained society for thousands of years. The culture developed independently from the rest of the world, so there aren't a whole lot of commonalities with other countries west of us and the addition of a nominally communist government makes it unrelatable for even countries in East Asia.

Lastly most of the identity and narrative for China are meant for a domestic audience. So it's hard to broadcast it to the world.

solarz · Jun 9, 2020

free_6ix9ine said:
Because without a narrative or identity as too WHY China is better than the US or more suited to lead the World, foreign countries/politicians can't justify their pivot to China even if they wanted to pivot, besides trade economy, etc. But Hard power isn't enough to convince everyone and without soft power you can't effectively counter US fake news and propaganda.

IT absolutely needs to be boiled down to a couple sentences. Do you think everyone has time to study 5000 years of history? Do they even care? When people think about the US. Their slogan and identity is freedom, democracy, etc. EVEN IF we can argue that the US is not living up to their slogan of freedom and whether their democratic system is bad or good. Its still a morally defensible narrative.

What do foreigners think about when they think about China, dictatorship, communsim, censorship, pollution? YES I 1000000% agree American fake news is maligning our country, but we cant hit back because we don't have ANY narrative besides trade.

EVEN IF Germans or Europeans hate Trump and think he is a horrible person. Do you think they would pivot to China? NO because our narrative is even WORSE, because we have none!!

We can point at the US and say they are bad, but we can't say in any way we ARE better. We had more allies when Chairman MAO was alive with socialism because at the very least socialism is something that people can relate to.

So stop arguing and saying people are wrong because they don't understand China. Learn to be self-critical for once and not be blinded by nationalistic jingoism. Because that's not their JOB to do so. People on this forum don't understand anything about image or soft power.

All I can say is you need more life experience, because right now you sound as if you have the attention span of a kindergartner.

"Yeah, who has time to study 5000 years of history? It's not as if we're running a country here or something..."

What you're advocating is not something that will benefit China, it's something that will benefit keyboard warriors, LOL!

China need a new geopolitical Doctrine ?

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