China need a new geopolitical Doctrine ?

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AndrewS

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gadgetcool5 said:
Unfortunately, that is not how technology works. Having a "rough" knowledge of what someone has done does not meaningfully help you create a 180 ton machine with 5,000 suppliers and mirrors ground so precisely that, if scaled to the size of Germany, they would have no bumps bigger than a millimeter.

EUV was theoretically proven in 1998. It took them 20 more years to practically develop it. There is no reason to think China would take less time. If anything, China may take even longer because it does not have all the supplier industries that ASML had access to during the 2000s and 2010s. Many of those industries don't even exist in China or are just getting started at a primitive state. If China develops an EUV machine by 2040 I will be impressed.

Maybe if China had maintained good relations with the West, bidden its time and hidden its strength a bit longer, it could have imported an EUV machine from the Netherlands, and then it would have been able to disassemble it and study it, and gain some clues. (Although even that would have cost it $250 million and give itself away). But it cannot even do that now.
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You state that it would a Chinese company would require more time and money - in order to redevelop something which has already been developed elsewhere.

That is an illogical statement to make.

You state that China doesn't have access to all the supplier industries that ASML had access to.
That is true in certain respects, but the same principle applies to those supplier industries.

It is always easier for a follower to develop those supplier industries and to catchup, rather than having to develop everything from scratch without any prior knowledge of what is possible.

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There's no hiding China's strength/size.

Remember that after the Hainan Incident of 2001, the neocon hawks were already itching to cast China as the next enemy.
But fortunately the War on Terror redirected America's focus for a decade.

The USA should really have realised the challenge posed by China back in 2014.
That was when China passed the USA in terms of actual economic output in PPP terms.
But fortunately the Russia-Ukraine War from 2014 provided another big distraction.
 
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AndrewS

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gadgetcool5 said:
The global consumer electronics market was $1.2 trillion in 2017.
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The China consumer electronics market was $247 billion in 2020.
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Most of the world market is OUTSIDE China. Therefore, that is where the battle is going to be. If China fails to gain a bigger share of the overall world market than the West, it will have a sm
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Your logic doesn't actually work.

What does the rest of the world (outside of China and the developed world) actually want in terms of electronics?

The vast majority are middle-income or lower-income countries, which share many more characteristics with China than with the developed world.

So guess what?

Chinese products are generally better tailored:

a) For the requirements of these countries
and
b) They cost less than products engineered for the developed world.

The conclusion is that Chinese technology is generally better at capturing these global markets than their expensive competitors from the developed world. Therefore Chinese companies would end up with the majority of the global technology market.

For example, the rest of the world just wants an affordable smartphone which does a decent job.
It means there is no need for the most expensive and highest performing smartphone electronics.
 
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SPOOPYSKELETON

SPOOPYSKELETON

Junior Member
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https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1290092292368367616

China should have been giving favorable coverage to the Portland protests, as the people are rebelling against the illegitimate Trump regime.

Instead, it is Never-Trump republicans who produced the best propaganda about that ongoing event. This in turn actually legitimizes the American system instead of undermining it.

People on this board like to complain about how the US is turning Hong Kong against China. But given the disparity in media power, the fact that the US actually tries while China doesn't even bother, is it any surprise that Hong Kong turned out the way it did? If China wants to escape from American hegemony, it can start by learning how to persuade people first.
 
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zgx09t

Junior Member
Registered Member
SPOOPYSKELETON said:
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1290092292368367616

China should have been giving favorable coverage to the Portland protests, as the people are rebelling against the illegitimate Trump regime.

Instead, it is Never-Trump republicans who produced the best propaganda about that ongoing event. This in turn actually legitimizes the American system instead of undermining it.

People on this board like to complain about how the US is turning Hong Kong against China. But given the disparity in media power, the fact that the US actually tries while China doesn't even bother, is it any surprise that Hong Kong turned out the way it did? If China wants to escape from American hegemony, it can start by learning how to persuade people first.
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There goes another round of your "soft power gap", Tidal.
 
SPOOPYSKELETON

SPOOPYSKELETON

Junior Member
Registered Member
zgx09t said:
There goes another round of your "soft power gap", Tidal.
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?
I am not tidal kiddo.

That said, the US is currently in the midst of a massive wave of unemploymsnt, evictions, bankruptcy caused DIRECTLY by the failure of American institutions and ideology. Is China doing anything with such a large opportunity? Shows they are not srs about fighting the propaganda war perhaps.
 
ZeEa5KPul

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
SPOOPYSKELETON said:
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1290092292368367616

China should have been giving favorable coverage to the Portland protests, as the people are rebelling against the illegitimate Trump regime.

Instead, it is Never-Trump republicans who produced the best propaganda about that ongoing event. This in turn actually legitimizes the American system instead of undermining it.

People on this board like to complain about how the US is turning Hong Kong against China. But given the disparity in media power, the fact that the US actually tries while China doesn't even bother, is it any surprise that Hong Kong turned out the way it did? If China wants to escape from American hegemony, it can start by learning how to persuade people first.
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It's funny the sort of trash people consider effective propaganda, but then again trash like TikTok took the world by storm. China can't do this sort of thing because it ultimately affirms democracy - why would China produce propaganda about the power of voting to effect change? Even if it did, anything from China would have the opposite effect since it's so easily tarnished by claiming that it's foreign propaganda designed to divide the American people, which it is.

You know, I never once saw Americans lamenting and gnashing their teeth at the fact that their propaganda isn't reaching Chinese people. They couldn't care less, it's just diaspora Chinese that have this unquenchable thirst for China "evangelizing" Westerners. That fetish is getting tiresome.
 
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Brainsuker

Junior Member
Registered Member
ZeEa5KPul said:
It's funny the sort of trash people consider effective propaganda, but then again trash like TikTok took the world by storm. China can't do this sort of thing because it ultimately affirms democracy - why would China produce propaganda about the power of voting to effect change? Even if it did, anything from China would have the opposite effect since it's so easily tarnished by claiming that it's foreign propaganda designed to divide the American people, which it is.

You know, I never once saw Americans lamenting and gnashing their teeth at the fact that their propaganda isn't reaching Chinese people. They couldn't care less, it's just diaspora Chinese that have this unquenchable thirst for China "evangelizing" Westerners. That fetish is getting tiresome.
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I agree. China should proclaim that they support Trump instead. It will give him harder punch on his face. Or just keep quiet and doing everything from under the table.
 
Jono

Jono

Junior Member
Registered Member
AndrewS said:
Your logic doesn't actually work.

What does the rest of the world (outside of China and the developed world) actually want in terms of electronics?

The vast majority are middle-income or lower-income countries, which share many more characteristics with China than with the developed world.

So guess what?

Chinese products are generally better tailored:

a) For the requirements of these countries
and
b) They cost less than products engineered for the developed world.

The conclusion is that Chinese technology is generally better at capturing these global markets than their expensive competitors from the developed world. Therefore Chinese companies would end up with the majority of the global technology market.

For example, the rest of the world just wants an affordable smartphone which does a decent job.
It means there is no need for the most expensive and highest performing smartphone electronics.
Click to expand...
Chinese products are generally better tailored:

a) For the requirements of these countries
I read somewhere that one of the reasons why Chinese smartphones are dominating in Africa is because these companies took pain and efforts to make the cameras work better for dark skinned people.
 
B

BMEWS

Junior Member
Registered Member
gadgetcool5 said:
America evil this, America evil that.

No, America does not want China to become more democratic because it would be "easier for CIA influence/ coups/etc" or that it would be "like the Japanese during the 80's and the Plaza Accord." Believe it or not, many Americans truly believe in the ideals of human rights and democracy and there is nothing wrong with that. In fact even if Americans did not believe in human rights, it is still the right thing to do, the Chinese people should have the right to freedom of speech and civil society without the government saying no.
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