China Navy Power

FuManChu said:

The US still has a lot to lose - just because China may suffer more doesn't mean the US would benefit. It would be a lose-lose conflict.

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that's why there isn't a conflict right now, but nobody knows in the future. If China wishes to be a super power (it has already developed enough soft power in this direction), it has to develop and deploy a fleet that would match its status. Once can argue that it doesn't need its own GPS system either, but it's still going to put up Beidou. Point is, it needs to be able to operate on its own and defend its own interests.

Ok, but I still disagree. You said it would operate two carriers - the Indians could easily end up with more than that by the time China could have two carriers at all. Even then China would have to deploy both its only big ships into the SSF and leave the other fleets with no carriers. Maybe you think that wouldn't be a problem, but personally I wouldn't want to concentrate my assets like that, until I had 3 carriers.

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If there are 3 carriers in China, I would put 2 in SSF. All the advanced SSKs go to ESF for good reasons. And it does appear to me that China wants to have around 3, so 1 can be deployed at all times. And my point from start was that 1 carrier group sent by PLAN has to be able to defeat multiple carrier groups sent by IN based on the larger size of the carrier allowing to carry greater number of planes and fixed wing AEW + better escorts in terms of AAW and attack submarines.

tphuang said:

And my point from start was that 1 carrier group sent by PLAN has to be able to defeat multiple carrier groups sent by IN based on the larger size of the carrier allowing to carry greater number of planes and fixed wing AEW + better escorts in terms of AAW and attack submarines.

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Maybe you are correct to say that the PLAN carrier group would be required to be able to defeat multiple IN carrier groups, but I do not think that would necessarily happen. I would prefer two medium carriers to one larger one. As for the rest, it's rather difficult to know how the IN and PLAN will match up by the time China has a fully operational carrier group it could afford to send against the IN - even more so by the time it has three carriers in total.

FuManChu said:

I know perfectly well that there are anti-Chinese attitudes in the US. But as I said there are things China could do to reduce tensions, just as there are things that it cannot change, nor should try to even if technically it could (such as revaluing the Yuan too much). But then again there are also lots of anti-US attitudes in China. If you want to have a comparison, there are more negative feelings about the US in China than vice versa.

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If China just uses feelings in the US as an excuse not to try to change or a reason to do X, it will just lead to a vicious circle. The US says China is a problem, China gets annoyed and tells the US to shut up, the US sees that as evidence China isn't interested in compromise, so it takes a tougher/more defensive line, anti-US sentiment grows in China (and it is already pretty high), etc.



You didn't say that - you said the entire Indian Navy. That is asking too much.

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And I've seen a poll where the US is seen more positive by the Chinese and Russians than by the US's own allies. These types of polls go across the board. I'll tell you the Chinese aren't pre-occupied with seeing the US as the enemy as Americans are to see China. Chinese antagonism towards the US comes from how the Chinese see the US treat China (as a threat) on the world stage. US antogonism for China is based on US politicians' own failed and hypocritical policies. Like the trade deficit of their own making by limiting what China can buy from the US to products they can make for themselves and at lesser costs, etc., then blaming China for not buying American. Then hide the little fact that about at least 60% of the trade deficit is actually profits going to foreign corporations (including American) that just manufacture their products in China. Really, how many Chinese brands are household names in the US?

America has accepted China as a nuclear power.

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I hear all the time especially before the Iraq wars that China has no right to nukes for it has no enemies the US can think of. Sounds like the same thing Rumsfeld said about China and its military spending increase. I heard plenty of times Americans demanding China dismantle its nukes. So Americans have not accepted it.

How often has the US threatened to nuke China if it does whatever?

If you're saying that the Chinese general's comments were pure rhetoric, then surely the same can be said about US comments. Why not just discount both and ignore them? That is what I've been saying all along - ignore hardliners.

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Their have been at least three incidents where the US has considered using nukes on China:

The Korean War with MacArthur wanting to invade China after they were done with North Korea.

Another one soon after regarding Taiwan when the US thought an invasion of Quemoy and Matsu was imminent.

And during the Vietnam War, the US thought China was supplying arms to the Vietnamese against the US.

Who knows what else.

I already saw the Chinese general's comments as rhetoric. You're the one that made it more than that. MacArthur was actually in a position to carry out his threat of at least invading China to which Truman might've actually had to use the bomb if that happened.

AssassinsMace said:

Their have been at least three incidents where the US has considered using nukes on China

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I was talking about recently. In the past there is often a lot of ill-will, but relations with China are much better than they were back then. For one thing the US actually has diplomatic relations with China.

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By the way, TP, Americans used to think it was inevitable the US was going to go to war with the USSR/Russia. That worked out ok in the end.

FuManChu said:

I was talking about recently. In the past there is often a lot of ill-will, but relations with China are much better than they were back then. For one thing the US actually has diplomatic relations with China.

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By the way, TP, Americans used to think it was inevitable the US was going to go to war with the USSR/Russia. That worked out ok in the end.

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Those were real incidents. It's not like long dead generations have past. If it's a part of the past, why do Americans still talk about Pearl Harbor? But lately I've been hearing the new generation say more than once China bombed Pearl Harbor. China didn't worsen relations with the US. American domestic politics did. China hasn't done anything against the US since they were Cold War partners. China is better domestically today than it was 20 years ago but because of the end of the Cold War, Americans needed a new enemy. Just like with Pakistan, a staunch ally of the US against the Soviet Union during the Cold War, but thrown under the bus after when they weren't needed. So you got the Taliban taking over. We know where that led.

And if 9-11 didn't happen, Bush would've targeted China. WHo knows what would've happened.

guess, please turn this back to about the navy, not politics. This is not a political forum. And I do have to aplogize if I led it to that to that direction.

So, please talk about what kind of navy China should approach, what kind ships it should get, what's realistic, what's not and what should be the aim of each fleet.

tphuang said:

So, please talk about what kind of navy China should approach, what kind ships it should get, what's realistic, what's not and what should be the aim of each fleet.

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I'm not sure about the separate fleets, in as far as how they should be organised.

But I would aim to get two functional carrier groups overall, so one would always be available. Three is further away in the future. I also put a lot of faith in LPHs - I'd like China to get to work on two of those, so it could provide more support in international operations, while also increasing its amphibious capabilities.

As for the rest, I think it's what anyone else would argue for - an improved fleet of surface combatants, backed up by modern submarines. Maybe have four destroyers detached to each carrier, with two frigates and a pair of SSNs (if the project has progressed satisfactorily by that point) as well. Apart from that you'd have your usual patrols and deployments. I'm not sure what people think in regards to the submarines, but I would prefer more investment in the SSN project(s). SSKs can be really great, but I guess the Astutes make me horribly biased in favour of the nuclear path.

One thing, I'm not sure I'd want to keep the older ships hanging around. When possible I'd prefer to scrap or sell them, building newer ones to replace them. Of course China might not be able to afford that what with other construction projects. I would be prepared to sacrifice a few before there could be a 1-1 replacement, if it meant enough money could be saved to expedite further building.

AssassinsMace said:

Those were real incidents. It's not like long dead generations have past. If it's a part of the past, why do Americans still talk about Pearl Harbor? But lately I've been hearing the new generation say more than once China bombed Pearl Harbor. China didn't worsen relations with the US. American domestic politics did. China hasn't done anything against the US since they were Cold War partners. China is better domestically today than it was 20 years ago but because of the end of the Cold War, Americans needed a new enemy. Just like with Pakistan, a staunch ally of the US against the Soviet Union during the Cold War, but thrown under the bus after when they weren't needed. So you got the Taliban taking over. We know where that led.

And if 9-11 didn't happen, Bush would've targeted China. WHo knows what would've happened.

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That is pure and utter tripe.

NK only has nukes beucase China allowed KJI to stay in power.

China helped Pakistan ge tthe bomb helping create a mini cold war on the sub continent

She has made repeated threats to Taiwan a US ally

Serving officers have made nuclear threats agaisnt the US

A Chinese fighter rammed a USN plane the crew was illegal interred and the plane was stripped.

The fate of many US POW/MIA from the Korean war has never been revealed

Norinco and PLA officers where busted at least twice trying to smuggle fully automatic weapons to street gangs