China naval drills in East China Sea

Blitzo · Apr 27, 2010

bladerunner said:
Thats acceptable, but I also think its to show surrounding nations, what I big and growing stick she has, and if they don't do as China asks, shes not afraid to use it under the guise of protecting its interests.

Isn't that what the military for all countries is used for? To protect their own interests and also to use it to intimidate enemies into succumbing to their will? Every country does this to an extent, so while I'm not saying China's right in intimidation, one can certainly not point her out as the most prominent case study compared to the rest of the world (US navy, anyone?)

And certainly you can't call these naval drills of late to be intimidating the surrounding countries (I assume you mean the SE Asian countries, because Japan and Korea have formidable militaries which I think China would be reluctant to challenge even in her current state) - one can't wield a big stick without knowing how to use it, and as of now China is still building and training herself how to use said stick!

(PS: What if it's in china's interests for other countries to do as China asks?

then it won't be a guise, so would it be justified? (rhetorical question))

bladerunner · Apr 27, 2010

In such sensitive waters, I would have thought it would be common courtesy to announce ones projected route. I believe the US Navy does, and thats why the Chinese sub was ableto intercept the Kitty Hawk.
Perhaps China chose to dispense with courtesy, because of her new found belief in her abilities. The negative aspect of which is the jump to becoming a regional bully.

Blitzo · Apr 27, 2010

bladerunner said:
In such sensitive waters, I would have thought it would be common courtesy to announce ones projected route. I believe the US Navy does, and thats why the Chinese sub was ableto intercept the Kitty Hawk.
Perhaps China chose to dispense with courtesy, because of her new found belief in her abilities. The negative aspect of which is the jump to becoming a regional bully.

Yeah, I agree it would've been polite for them to have said "we're doing this, ya da dee," because other countries who are more sensitive may incline to see the drills as aggressive or as you said, becoming a regional bully.

I doubt that china's lack of announcing the training drill was because they wanted to intimidate the countries around, but rather they didn't want to make a big deal out of it. If the training drill was announced, then other countries may have made a bigger fuss over it (this obviously is perceived differently by different people - some see the lack of "courtesy" as a growing sign of assertiveness - while I think the lack of an announcement makes the PLAN still timid over its own capabilities), and even may have gone to view the drills to see how the PLAN may operate (which the PLAn wouldn't want obviously - secrecy is one of the few advantages the PLA has in general).

Hendrik_2000 · Apr 27, 2010

bladerunner said:
In such sensitive waters, I would have thought it would be common courtesy to announce ones projected route. I believe the US Navy does, and thats why the Chinese sub was ableto intercept the Kitty Hawk.
Perhaps China chose to dispense with courtesy, because of her new found belief in her abilities. The negative aspect of which is the jump to becoming a regional bully.

It is international water where free passage is guarantee. China doesn't need to ask permission from anybody. Even Japan's foreign ministry concede that it is international water and there is nothing they can do about it

Well Japan better get used to it. As PLAN grow so will be the need to exercise

bladerunner · Apr 27, 2010

@ Hendrick

China doesn't need to ask permission from anybody.

Well Japan better get used to it. As PLAN grow so will be the need to exercise

So thats it Huh? Chinas to big and important to even bother to observe the common rules of diplomacy or courtesy?

I hope thats not a true reflection in the attitude of the Chinese military

siegecrossbow · Apr 27, 2010

Why should it feel the need to throw its military weight around after all China's been claiming her rise is a peaceful one.

Well peaceful rise doesn't necessarily mean becoming a pacifist. We all know what happened to China during the 19th century after she became technologically backwards.

Thats acceptable, but I also think its to show surrounding nations, what I big and growing stick she has, and if they don't do as China asks, shes not afraid to use it under the guise of protecting its interests.

No offense but the United States and Russia have both been wielding big sticks around the world for the past fifty years. All China has done is drilling in International Waters and somehow that is jeopardizing Asian security?

In such sensitive waters, I would have thought it would be common courtesy to announce ones projected route. I believe the US Navy does, and thats why the Chinese sub was ableto intercept the Kitty Hawk.
Perhaps China chose to dispense with courtesy, because of her new found belief in her abilities. The negative aspect of which is the jump to becoming a regional bully.

Once again what part of the East China Sea isn't sensitive?

So thats it Huh? Chinas to big and important to even bother to observe the common rules of diplomacy or courtesy?

I hope thats not a true reflection in the attitude of the Chinese military

Technically no country is big and important enough to bother but nations often break rules out of national interest. The United States started the Iraqi War despite oppositions from the United Nations.

Troika · Apr 27, 2010

bladerunner said:
@ Hendrick

So thats it Huh? Chinas to big and important to even bother to observe the common rules of diplomacy or courtesy?

I hope thats not a true reflection in the attitude of the Chinese military

You quoted this:

China doesn't need to ask permission from anybody.

Well Japan better get used to it. As PLAN grow so will be the need to exercise

What he actually said was this:

It is international water where free passage is guarantee. China doesn't need to ask permission from anybody. Even Japan's foreign ministry concede that it is international water and there is nothing they can do about it

Well Japan better get used to it. As PLAN grow so will be the need to exercise

You are taking it out of context and attacking a strawman. One hesitates to use words such as 'dishonest' or 'disingenuous', but at the very least you are not reading what he said. His argument is that the act is within well-defined international norms, or common rules of diplomacy (he is correct in that, it's called innocent passage, that's why the subs surfaced). Your reply was essentially 'observe the common rules of diplomacy or courtesy'.

I hope that clears up the confusion.

jantxv · Apr 27, 2010

I'm not vouching one way or the other about this story. I'm bringing it here since it shows the Japanese perceptive and is relevant to the topic thread and MAY or MAY NOT bring new issues about discipline within the PLAN.

Chinese chopper 'ignored orders' / Insubordination within navy could heighten possibility of accidents

The Yomiuri Shimbun

A Chinese Navy helicopter likely was ignoring orders from its own mother ship when it flew within 100 meters of a Maritime Self-Defense Force destroyer on April 8, according to Defense Ministry sources.

The pilot's actions suggest that orders may not be rigorously followed within the Chinese Navy, and Defense Ministry officials are concerned that such insubordination could increase the possibility of accidents.

According to the sources, the incident occurred when the Chinese fleet was engaged in training exercises from April 7 to Friday. A total of 10 warships and submarines, including guided missile destroyers, traveled from the East China Sea through the Okinawa islands to waters off Okinotorishima island, the southernmost point in Japan, in the western Pacific Ocean.

The MSDF sent two destroyers and a P-3C surveillance aircraft to monitor the activities of the fleet.

On the morning of April 8, the carrier-based helicopter approached an MSDF destroyer when the fleet was practicing the takeoff and landing of its helicopters in the central area of the East China Sea.

When the helicopter took off from a guided missile destroyer, it was about 4,000 meters away from the MSDF destroyer Suzunami. As the chopper flew closer to the Suzunami, the destroyer ordered it several times by radio not to fly any closer to the Japanese destroyers.

However, the helicopter ignored the orders and continued toward the Suzunami. Ultimately the helicopter was only about 90 meters away from the Suzunami at a height of about 30 meters, lower than the destroyer's mast.

On Wednesday, a Chinese Navy helicopter approached an MSDF destroyer south of the Okinawa Island. This time, the helicopter circled around the destroyer Asayuki twice.

A senior Defense Ministry official said it is possible the helicopter ignored the instructions of its fleet in the second case as well.

"If a Chinese helicopter goes out of control and collides with one of our destroyers, anti-Japanese sentiment will flare up in China. We need to establish rules to prevent accidents on the open sea," the official said.
(Apr. 27, 2010)

jantxv · Apr 27, 2010

Again, I'm not vouching one way or the other about this story. I'm bringing it here since it shows the Chinese perceptive and is relevant to the topic thread and MAY or MAY NOT bring new issues about surveillance in the Japanese Navy.

China envoy blames Japan for naval fly-by

* Published: 27/04/2010 at 05:50 PM
* Online news: Asia

Bangkok Post

Beijing's new ambassador to Tokyo on Tuesday rejected a protest over Chinese military helicopters twice making fly-bys close to Japanese naval destroyers, blaming Japan for the row.

Chinese ambassador Cheng Yonghua answers questions during a press conference in Tokyo. Cheng has rejected a protest over Chinese military helicopters twice making fly-bys close to Japanese naval destroyers, blaming Japan for the row.

The Chinese envoy, Cheng Yonghua, also warned that the US-Japanese security alliance under which the United States operates dozens of bases in Japan, should not target China, saying that "the Cold War structure is over".

The helicopter fly-bys took place near Japan's Okinawa island this month when Japanese naval ships spotted and followed the largest Chinese flotilla of warships so far to sail between Japanese islands.

The Chinese ships did not pass through Japan's territorial waters but their voyage was seen as provocative by many in Japan, which has watched with unease its Asian rival's build-up of military muscle.

Tokyo lodged a protest with Beijing last week after a Chinese naval helicopter flew within 90 metres (300 feet) of one of its naval ships on April 23 in the second such incident this month, Japan's defence ministry said.

But China's ambassador -- who took office in late February -- blamed the tense incident on the Japanese destroyer and patrol aircraft that he said had followed the Chinese flotilla "all the way into the Pacific".

"How would the Japanese people feel if there was a Japanese drill and the Japanese left port and was then annoyingly chased by Chinese destroyers?" Cheng said at the Japan National Press Club.

"That breaches the spirit of mutual understanding and mutual trust."

Japan and China -- Asia's biggest and second-biggest economies, and chief competitors for resources -- have long been embroiled in territorial disputes in the East China Sea, including areas with rich energy deposits.

Reports on Monday of Japanese plans to soon scour the seabeds in its exclusive economic zone for rare metals that are needed in many high-tech products sparked a quick response in China's state-controlled media.

The China Daily quoted analysts as saying that any unilateral move to exploit resources near disputed islands would likely "trigger a clash".
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Between April 7 and 9, a flotilla of 10 Chinese ships, including two submarines, conducted drills in the East China Sea near Okinawa and then sailed on to the Pacific Ocean on April 10, local media reported.

yehe · Apr 27, 2010

bladerunner said:
@ Hendrick

So thats it Huh? Chinas to big and important to even bother to observe the common rules of diplomacy or courtesy?

I hope thats not a true reflection in the attitude of the Chinese military

Its not the common rules of diplomacy actually, I belive only if the passage happened within 12 mile of the coast, that is within the territorial water, then you should tell the goverment involved before hand, like the strait of malacca or Istanbul, where you are STILL allowed to pass under international law I believe.

In this case however, I dont really see any reason why China should feel compelled to inform the japanese first.

Actually, China is the one insists on prior notification for foreign warships to enter its territorial seas.
However, the United States and other maritime nations reject such notification and claim the right of innocent passage in foreign territorial seas.
I still remember a couple years ago when 3 Australian frigates passed through the strait of Taiwan despite protest from China claiming on the right of passage, this was during a time when relationship between China and Taiwan was really tense. In April 2001, three Australian warships passing through the Taiwan Strait apparently weaved in and out of China's territorial waters. China, believing that such passage was not 'innocent,' demanded that the warships leave China's territorial waters, was however rejected by the Australian navy. Analysts speculated that the incident was in part a reaction by China to Australian Prime Minister John Howard's support for President Bush's position on Taiwan. The incident also occurred only a few weeks after the EP-3 incident.

United States have always insisted on the right of transit passage in those straits "used for international navigation" by the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. So, if the US and Aussies doesnt follow this rule, neither should China be confined by it, dont you think so?

China naval drills in East China Sea

Blitzo

Lieutenant General

bladerunner

Banned Idiot

Blitzo

Lieutenant General

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General

bladerunner

Banned Idiot

siegecrossbow

General

Troika

Junior Member

jantxv

New Member

jantxv

New Member

yehe

Junior Member