China MAD option

chuck731

Banned Idiot
So did US kill any nations with nuclear weapons? No, and that's because LeMay and Powers were never in position to make such decisions and never will, and I would argue they were only talking tough to keep their hard guy image up. .

Barry Goldwater was close enough as Republican presidential condidate in 1964, and his idea of reducing threat of nuclear war was to "hit the men's room in Kremlin with a hydrogen bomb", while justifying that position by intoning, to cheering applause, "extremism in defence of liberty is no vice"

Don't feel so secure that America can't turn into truly monsterous genocidal state in the name of "defence of liberty".
 
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Cheng

New Member
If the US and Japan can take on China, why don't they do it now? Hasn't China done enough to warrant such action? Maybe they're afraid of the consequences? There goes the theory the US and Japan can take on China without fear of its minimal deterrence.

The US and Japan are certainly afraid of the consequences of a conventional conflict - irrespective of who wins.

China already has an economy that is now larger than the USA, and will probably take 4 years to create a Japan-sized economy.

Yet China spends less than half as much on the military as a militarised USA.

So in the aftermath of any conflict, we will see a huge jump in Chinese military spending - with China probably outspending the USA+Japan.

If there was a nuclear war - we'd see a longer delay before China outstripped the USA+Japan - but even more enmity.

===

From the Chinese point of view, they'd rather spend that money on internal economic development and lifting hundreds of millions more from poverty.
 

Phead128

Captain
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
How easy is it to hide a nuclear warhead in a shipping container and blow it up in the port of Los Angelos, or even carry it inside of an civilian 747...

There is a million ways to easy penetrate US border with concealed nukes for counter value purposes, so missile delivery quantity isn't the most important figure if a Chinese nationalist or strategist wanted to avenge the loss of Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, they can easily do it.

What is US going to do, blockade all its ports, radiation detectors at all her ports, ban all incoming international flight travel?

China can even hand Al Qaeda cells dirty bombs if Beijing was ever nuked.
 

Broccoli

Senior Member
2011 article.

Back in 2003, David Wright and Lisbeth Gronlund had estimated after careful analysis that China had produced at its two plutonium production sites, Jinquan and Guangyuan, between 2 and 5 tons of plutonium for weapons, leaving China currently an inventory of “4 tons or less.”

Very recently, the IPFM group arrived at a more circumscribed estimate for how much plutonium from military production is in China’s stockpile: 1.8 tons plus or minus 0.5 tons.

David told me on the phone this week it would appear that in large part the lower numbers cranked out by IPFM derived from a lower estimate for the thermal rating of the Guangyuan reactor.

The size of China’s plutonium stocks could have implications for future expansion of its nuclear arsenal, either as part of its modernization plans or in response to a US deployment of a ballistic missile defense system. For example, if China were to increase the number of warheads on long range missiles from the current level of roughly 20 to a level of 75 to 100, as suggested by the December 2001 National Intelligence Estimate (NIE), that could require 0.2 to 0.4 tonnes of plutonium, assuming these warheads contained 3 to 5 kilograms of plutonium each. A buildup to 200 warheads on long-range missiles—a number reportedly suggested by the 2000 NIE—would require 0.6 to 0.9 tonnes of plutonium.

Thus, unless China dismantled some existing warheads on shorter range systems and reused the plutonium, limits on its plutonium stocks might place a bound on how much it could expand its long-range arsenal without restarting plutonium production. This may be an important consideration for China if it wants to keep open the option of expanding its strategic nuclear forces in response to possible US ballistic missile defense deployments. Indeed, while Chinese officials stated in the mid-1990s that China was no longer producing fissile material for weapons and had no plans to resume, China has resisted efforts to negotiate a formalized fissile material cut off treaty.




Since this paper was published, China has stated that it favors negotiation of an FMCT, but China is widely believed to be standing behind Pakistan, which is blocking the negotiation in the CD in Geneva.

Unlike the rest of the P-5, China also won’t declare a formal moratorium on weapons fissile material production. I had argued in November that China should declare such a moratorium if it wanted to build confidence and alleviate foreign concerns about potential for proliferation from their future fuel cycle cooperation with CNNC.

In the course of preparing that article over nine months, on two occasions PLA officers expressed to me the view that China might at some future time resume defense fissile material production, especially should China and the US not resolve serious strategic issues including redeployment of US strategic forces in Asia and ballistic missile defense. Since publication of the Carnegie article, another Chinese official aimed to somewhat qualify these statements, interpreting the PLA’s position on future restart of nuclear material production as a “policy of complete ambiguity.”
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Though I believe that China's DF-31 RV uses HEU pit instead of Pu, but of course there is always the third option... composite pit.
 
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Kvitoya

Banned Idiot
Hi this is my first thread here
as you all have realized that China possess only mininum nuclear deterrece force
of only 100 - 400 nuclear warhead with only a dozen currently capable of striking continental USA
while the US and russia has more than 1500 nukes, those small arsenal is highly vulnerable to

massive nuclear first strike, not to mention US missile shield that is constantly getting better
threatening to neutralize China small nuclear retaliation.

So my question what is China plan in ensuring MAD?
is it possible for China to unleash armageddon by striking non US targets in the unlikely case of

US first strike?
For example by striking US neighbour of mexico, and let the radioactive wind does it job to ensure

texas is no longer habitable
or by striking world rainforests for example amazon rainforest that produces 25% or world oxygen

or perhaps by striking russia in which some experts thinks will unleash its massive nuclear

missiles not only to China but to the all of the nuclear armed states in retalation
what is your opinion on this? because for the life of me I cannot think of any logical reasoning
why China insist on minimum deterrence doctrine

Don't forget that because the cost of nuclear war is so prohibitively high, states are much less likely to select that option, or be the first to cross the line. Even in a world tooled up with nukes, conventional war is still much more likely, even between two nuclear powers.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
How easy is it to hide a nuclear warhead in a shipping container and blow it up in the port of Los Angelos, or even carry it inside of an civilian 747...

There is a million ways to easy penetrate US border with concealed nukes for counter value purposes, so missile delivery quantity isn't the most important figure if a Chinese nationalist or strategist wanted to avenge the loss of Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, they can easily do it.

What is US going to do, blockade all its ports, radiation detectors at all her ports, ban all incoming international flight travel?

China can even hand Al Qaeda cells dirty bombs if Beijing was ever nuked.

There have been on several occasions where the US was close to nuking China. What held them back? The consequences afterwards. China having nukes certainly made them think twice. Before that... fear of Soviet nuclear counterstrike. What few North Korean nukes there are certainly prevents Americans and South Koreans from attacking the North. People who tend to think their lives are more valuable than others, are less likely to put them at risk.

I don't think there's any question if there's someone determined enough, he or she can do such a thing. What holds people back from doing it are the consequences afterwards. Is a country behind it? That's a big operation to sneak that many nukes enough to do the job. If not a state, then groups like terrorists. People who don't care are suicidal. People who do care aren't going to be associated with the dealings of suicidal people. I imagine most terrorists especially the ones that will commit suicide are pretty uneducated.

All these factors are probably why you don't see such a thing happen.
 

Kvitoya

Banned Idiot
There have been on several occasions where the US was close to nuking China. What held them back? The consequences afterwards. China having nukes certainly made them think twice. Before that... fear of Soviet nuclear counterstrike. What few North Korean nukes there are certainly prevents Americans and South Koreans from attacking the North. People who tend to think their lives are more valuable than others, are less likely to put them at risk.

I don't think there's any question if there's someone determined enough, he or she can do such a thing. What holds people back from doing it are the consequences afterwards. Is a country behind it? That's a big operation to sneak that many nukes enough to do the job. If not a state, then groups like terrorists. People who don't care are suicidal. People who do care aren't going to be associated with the dealings of suicidal people. I imagine most terrorists especially the ones that will commit suicide are pretty uneducated.

All these factors are probably why you don't see such a thing happen.

Yes, states are rational actors, and in this case rational actors each with the capability to utterly destroy the other. For this reason we can predict they will not use nuclear weapons against each other unless they get very desperate and invasion of the homeland is imminent.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Weird but interesting.

[video=youtube;qDqECOqLJcY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDqECOqLJcY[/video]
[video=youtube;aa5qkPpm1OU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa5qkPpm1OU[/video]

Interesting how it accounts for the future but a futuristic stronger China still has its low number of nukes.
 

Kvitoya

Banned Idiot
Weird but interesting.

[video=youtube;qDqECOqLJcY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDqECOqLJcY[/video]
[video=youtube;aa5qkPpm1OU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa5qkPpm1OU[/video]

Interesting how it accounts for the future but a futuristic stronger China still has its low number of nukes.

Yes, weird but interesting indeed. My main problem with this scenario is the presumption that the EU will not join the war as a US ally. By 2040 I am confident the US and EU will have one free-trade market and will be much closer. The idea that the US's only allies would be Australia and Japan is most unlikely. I would expect India to pile in behind the US in such a conflict as well. The bottom line is a conflict between US and China could be strictly regional, but more likely it quickly becomes a world war.
 

Broccoli

Senior Member
Lawrence Krauss (scientist) and he's opinion about missile shields.

US defense industry doesn't want to cancel ABM because it's worth of billions, and Russian missile manufacturers see it as a good way to earn some billions too. Now people ask why aren't Chinese manufacturing that many ICBM's? Answer is that in China scientists have a lot of say when it comes to nuclear weapons, and just like Mr. Krauss, Chinese scientists know realities behind missile shields.

1:50 onward.
[video=youtube;g6DuACr64Jg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6DuACr64Jg[/video]


2011 article and not much has changed since then.
In 2002, the American Physical Society, which represents the entire physics community in this country, was so concerned about the technological challenges that it passed a resolution which seemed eminently reasonable, although it was subsequently ignored. The resolution called on the US government not to deploy a missile defense system until it was demonstrated to be workable against a realistic threat.

In fact, the system has never been tested against a realistic threat: an incoming missile with decoys, long known to be the Achilles Heel of Missile Defense. A decoy was supposed to be used in one recent test, but that test failed because the decoy failed to deploy.

The central problem with missile defense systems is that decoys are always cheaper to deploy than interceptors. Moreover, an imperfect system is intrinsically destabilizing, because it encourages building and launching more weapons. Even a system with 90% efficiency, far in excess of any existing system, will result in a 50-50 chance of successful penetration for every 5 missiles launched.

In 1972 Richard Nixon signed the ABM treaty because an active campaign by the scientific community convinced his administration that a workable ICBM defense system was not technologically feasible. Nothing much has changed in the interim.
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[video=youtube;gNSR7dXHdCY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNSR7dXHdCY[/video]
This 2000 video from the Union of Concerned Scientists' Global Security Program shows how countermeasures could be used to defeat a missile defense system.
 
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