China Flanker thread

[Scratch]

I've read a short article somewhere, I think it was on fas.org/man, that during bombing exercises by the PLAAF J-11 dropped some kind of decelerated bombs wich clearly stressed it's ground attack capabilities, indicating that already a Su-35 Radar and avonics were introduced.
I also think all this modell-numbering brings more confusion that clarity. One "version" may be a small upgrade of another one.
So I believe buying new russian SUs means just buying a littler more advanced technology. And if the PLAAF would do so, it in some way shows that their domestic research isn't as capable as they wish/want it to be.

 

[crobato]

The Su-35, with a more powerful engine and phase array, has fundamental technological advantage over J-11B, which will only have a mechanically scanning array, and I don't think the WS-10A has matched the TWR of AL-41F1. But I would be probably be much more confident of the J-11B's build quality and construction.

Problem of the Su-35 and in fact with all Russian buys, is seperating the hype from a deliverable product. The Russians have tried to sell the Chinese things that they could not actually deliver before, or when delivered, didn't live up to what the Chinese expected. If you order Su-35 now, you think they could actually deliver next year? Will it actually perform as hyped?

 

[mehdi]

My opinion is that for now the Su-35 is being revamped for the chinese market, it's worthwhile to see in the future if this project goes ahead. Since the Chinese have the money and the Russians have the hardware anything is possible.

As we say a win win situation.

I would love to see a Chinese Su-35 against those Taiwanese Mirage 2000

 

[adeptitus]

The Su-35, with a more powerful engine and phase array, has fundamental technological advantage over J-11B, which will only have a mechanically scanning array, and I don't think the WS-10A has matched the TWR of AL-41F1. But I would be probably be much more confident of the J-11B's build quality and construction.

Problem of the Su-35 and in fact with all Russian buys, is seperating the hype from a deliverable product. The Russians have tried to sell the Chinese things that they could not actually deliver before, or when delivered, didn't live up to what the Chinese expected. If you order Su-35 now, you think they could actually deliver next year? Will it actually perform as hyped?

To be fair, the French tried to do the same to Singapore, when the Rafale's "Omni Role' wasn't ready. The British were at least more honest about the EF2000's A2G software.

IMO Russians are great aerospace designers. They're capable of making everything from Su-27's to Buran Space Shuttles on a much smaller budget (vs US) and with older technology. The PRC has came a long way since Deng's reforms in 1978, but is still way behind what the Russians could do (Buran, Mir Station).

There's still much that the PRC can learn from the Russians. IMO it'd be advantageous for PRC to license technology such as the Su-35, and fund co-development projects like the PAK-FA.

 

[crobato]

While the Russians are great engineers, they are truly poor in the methodology of quality control.

Without quality control, your sheer ability to create more and more complex systems will be increasingly in doubt. As technology becomes more complex, the more they tend to breakdown too and the key to this is quality control.

To put mathematically, let's say you have a breakdown rate of 1/1000 parts.

If you are building an item with less than 1000 parts, the product will be quite reliable and sturdy.

But if the system exceeds 1000 parts, you are now looking at one possible breakdown.

With 10,000 parts, you increase your chances by ten fold.

With 100,000 parts, it becomes one hundred.

Thus the quality control that is A-OK for building AK-47s, T-34s and MiG-17s ain't going to cut it on an Su-27. And when planes become increasingly more complex than an Su-27, you compound the problem even more. Thus at some point, the system will collapse by itself.

After the fall of the SU, at least the Russians began to incorporate more Western methods of quality control, though not without a period of pain for their customers. It does look like for certain companies like Salut, they are doing much better, doing their best to certify the engines to rigid specifications before they go into J-10s and J-11s. For Klimov though, they better work harder, 5 out 15 engines rejected is horrible.

 

[swimmerXC]

J-11?

 

[tphuang]

hmm I was just wondering what are the latest news on chinese locally produced J-11 are they going to change to the more advanced Su-35 or stop for now ???

Su-27's airframe is already pretty good and J-11 probably will use more composite (so reduced weight) might have more hard points and longer operating radius. And with advanced flight control system, improved engine, avionics and missiles, that's quite a huge upgrade.

There's still much that the PRC can learn from the Russians. IMO it'd be advantageous for PRC to license technology such as the Su-35, and fund co-development projects like the PAK-FA.

The main upgrade of su-35 over su-27 is still the avionics, engine and weapons. imo, by the time that China can actually get su-35, the domestic avionics and weapons would be at least as good as su-35's avionics and weapons. And if China really likes Russian engines, it can just buy more Russian engines. But I don't really think the AL-31FM series (I have doubts about AL-41F1) represent that big of an upgrade over WS-10 series.

 

[mehdi]

Su-27's airframe is already pretty good and J-11 probably will use more composite (so reduced weight)

Well that's the part that need to be really answered, I have heard a lot about Chinese use of composites but anyway haven't had any real insight of it. It would be quite helpful if anyone can post any comments on the use of composites in the Chinese aviation industry with some nice pics to go along.

As for the J-11 if it was to use composites in its structure it should have an increased payload than the Russian ones !!! besides that the avionics on the J-11 are they those of the Su-27SK or those or the Su-27SMK.

 

[challenge]

Well that's the part that need to be really answered, I have heard a lot about Chinese use of composites but anyway haven't had any real insight of it. It would be quite helpful if anyone can post any comments on the use of composites in the Chinese aviation industry with some nice pics to go along.

As for the J-11 if it was to use composites in its structure it should have an increased payload than the Russian ones !!! besides that the avionics on the J-11 are they those of the Su-27SK or those or the Su-27SMK.

the russian trying to market the improve version of SU-27SK call su-27skm.
according to janes,the overall radar cross section for SU-27SKM been reduce intensively,below "1 meter",since the big inlet fan blade being source of RF "echo"
the russian come with new technology possibility of RAM on the fan blade.very similiar to boeing FX-36.

 

[mehdi]

Well I have to admit Janes sometimes talk much I don't know where they get their information perhaps from a party organised by Sukhoi Officials ????

Anyway well yes it's the Su-27 SKM I had info on that new plane on the russians sites but for the radar cross section being reduced intensively that has to be seen. You have any pics of that new plane. I also would ask for tech details for the new Su-27 SKM perhaps might cross check with what I know.