China Flanker Thread II

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luhai

Banned Idiot
I saw the news on Sina.com, QQ News, ... however, the way to they posted it like narrating a novel that's why I give it low credibility and decide not to re-post that news here. They also have some photos of the Su-30 but I believe the posted photos are not from the above air-interception.


Interestingly, the source of the pictures, navy.top81.cn did not report such news. My guess is the the picture is from some training mission earlier. And the writings accomplished the picture are written very dramatically, using so many adjectives its language it feels like it from some thriller novel and feels fake in general. In any case, on the site and weibo where the news is supposed to be from, it's either being removed or didn't exist at all. The news still exist on the CCTV site, but it's incomplete compare to the ifeng version. So may be april fools has come early?

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The CCTV report on this, it was cut off around half way, and the page is buggy as well. Feels like an artifact from page removal.
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plawolf

Lieutenant General
The MK2s were both carrying live rounds in a combat configuration, so I seriously doubt the pictures were from some live fire training exercise as you typically would not be carrying both BVR and WVR missiles for such drills.

My guess is that it was just a routine armed CAP of the ADIZ and nothing all that interesting happened and all the stories are jut pure fanfic. After all, if those MK2s got within visual range and actually intercepted something, you would think some photos or official announcements would have been made by now.

The Japanse were making official denouncements left right and centre at China just announcing its ADIZ, you think they would just sit on the story if a pair of 'full-armed' PLA fighters 'harassed' their 'peaceful' armed patrols in international airspace?
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
The JH7As are strike fighters, the Su30MK2s are multirole.

As for why the PLANAF sent them, well probably because they got the legs for it, and IIRC, those MK2s are the only Flanker variant aircraft the PLANAF has other then the J15, which is still not yet operational.

My guess would be that those MK2s were on a CAP to enforce the ADIZ rather than being scrambled to intercept any specific intruder. For such a role, the longer range of the Flanker would make it the obvious choice. I'm sure having two seats to give twice the number of pilots a taste of the action was not lost on PLAN planners either.

It is interesting that both the PLAAF and PLANAF are getting involved in patrolling the ADIZ, I wonder if this will foster greater co-operation or rivalry between the two.

Yes but, wouldn't a flight of J-11BH make much more sense? Not only do they share similar ranges, but they would features significantly better avionics and weapons systems, and they are also suited towards such roles.
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
I know that Su-30MK2 (and MKK) are multirole , only China prefers to use them as strike fighters because it has other aircraft for air-to-air role . BTW , isn't PLANAF supposed to have J-11BH and J-10A ?

As far as logistics is concerned, the J-11BH regiments are mostly based in the South facing the SCS. The regiments facing Japan and NK are stocked with older equipment.
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
It would be interesting to know what aircraft and how many were coming into the ADIZ and what flight plan they were adopting.

My bet is probably a single or maybe two Japanese F-15s and some kind of aggressive flight pattern to test the Chinese reaction.

Couldn't the Chinese simply place a couple of HQ-9Bs and paint the aircraft? Would that technically be an act of war?
 

thunderchief

Senior Member
Couldn't the Chinese simply place a couple of HQ-9Bs and paint the aircraft? Would that technically be an act of war?

Tracking aircraft with search radars is done all the time . Tracking with fire-control radar is dangerous escalation , especially in international airspace .
 

port_08

Junior Member
Tracking aircraft with search radars is done all the time . Tracking with fire-control radar is dangerous escalation , especially in international airspace .

What is the rule of engagement in an ADIZ? Is it still consider "international airspace".....really not sure.

Maybe the anology is like a police officer patrolling a street\neighbourhood fully armed, but is he not allowed to simply point their guns on anyone? Unless the person is a prime suspects of a crime or showing aggressive behaviours on the street or involve in criminal activities.

Base on this analogy I would say, an unidentified aircraft suspected of carrying firearms (carrying missiles), entering the area where the police officer is patrolling (eg. SU-30s) warranted the police officer (SU-30s) to take out their guns and aim at the intruders\suspect of criminal activites for behaving in aggresive behaviours (intruding in a defensive zone) and may involve in criminal activities (eg. like spying, threatening)

So tracking an unidentified aircraft that intrude into your area with fire-control radar is justifiable?
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Couldn't the Chinese simply place a couple of HQ-9Bs and paint the aircraft? Would that technically be an act of war?

The Chinese ADIZ extends well outside the range of land based HQ9s.

It won't be an act of war, but it will be a massive escalation and clear provocation as Thunderchief already pointed out.

What more, doing so would fatally undermine China's message that its ADIZ is not intended to restrict freedom of navigation within its declared ADIZ. Using SAMs to paint a plane is more in keeping of something you'd to to enforce a no fly zone.

On top of all that, using HQ9 in that way could compromise its effectiveness by allowing the Japanese and Americans to get a record of its wartime operating frequencies and characteristics.

What others typically do to enforce their ADIZs is to scramble fighters to intercept any military aircraft from specific countries that enters that ADIZ, get a visual and 'escort' it until it leaves.

China isn't even going that far, thus far, it seems content to just get remote ID of a foreign military aircraft that has entered its ADIZ unannounced. If that foreign aircraft looks to be only transiting or is otherwise unthreatening, the PLA will not even bother getting a visual ID on it.

My guess is that the PLA defensive escalation list goes something like this:
1) ID using long range land based radar
2) Scramble alert fighters/divert AWACS to get ID using air base radar, radio asking for ID and intensions
3) Have alert fighters close to within visual range to positively ID, radio asking about intensions and shadow
4) have alert fighters get in real close, physically signal foreign pilot and radio warning that they are about to enter Chinese airspace
5) Final warning issued just before foreign aircraft enters Chinese airspace. Aggressive maneuvers to try and get the foreign aircraft to alter course. Maybe going as far as firing tracers across the bow.
6) Issue notification that foreign aircraft has entered Chinese airspace, demand foreign aircraft change course and land at designated Chinese airbase.
7) Weapons lock and final warning to comply
8) Shoot down.

What I suspect the Japanese, and maybe the Americans as well, are doing right now is to gradually edging closer and closer to try and test out at just what point the PLA moves from one level to the next on its escalation list. They will hopefully stop before the PLA has advanced to step 5, but definitely before step 6 as that would be a stupid own goal to violate Chinese airspace with armed Chinese fighters right on your 6.
 

port_08

Junior Member
Couldn't the Chinese simply place a couple of HQ-9Bs and paint the aircraft? Would that technically be an act of war?

That's why very dangerous, all factors that can start war is there...rules of engagement, code of conduct, open communication, respect of the opponent forces are needed here. Unfortunately the relationship between Japan and China is not so good at the moment for the current administration. I'm not sure who will blink first, Xi or Abe.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
That's why very dangerous, all factors that can start war is there...rules of engagement, code of conduct, open communication, respect of the opponent forces are needed here. Unfortunately the relationship between Japan and China is not so good at the moment for the current administration. I'm not sure who will blink first, Xi or Abe.

Agreed. This is why the Japanese media made a huge deal out of the supposed "painting" of a Japanese patrol aircraft by a Chinese warship's fire-control radar.
 
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