China Flanker Thread II

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Jono

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Deng is famous for his pragmatism, and vision.
so his philosophy translated into "go for the substance, nevermind the name", "nevermind the surname is socialism or capitalism, as long as it delivers the goodies, it is good enough", and "as long as it catches mice, whether black or white is a good cat".
Maybe that kind of pragmatism inspired the PLA to have planned and performed as they have, while India has always aimed for the latest and the best, despite their inadequate industrial base.
 

weig2000

Captain
That's not exactly what I am referring to. Obviously, having 2 competing companies allow them to progress faster in both j10 and flankers. That was something they had for a long time.

What I see differently is how they approached the induction of flankers vs how other countries did, namely India. Everything they did was something that you'd only expect to see in China. When they chose to license manufacture, they did not look to license manufacture the most advanced variant available. The technology on Su-30MKI is clearly more advanced. However, they needed the capability sooner. They wanted to get access to flanker assembly sooner, so that they can raise the level of SAC sooner and indigenize sooner. They had confidence that they'd be able to fully indigenize a modern 4th generation aircraft. Similarly, they didn't get license production of AL-31, but they set up the largest MRO plant for it outside of Russia. It was capable of pretty much everything other than producing new AL-31.

When they were procuring MKK, they knew it didn't have advanced electronics or sophisticated missiles. However, they were confident that better domestic options were coming along, so they ordered it for immediate capabilities anyhow. I'm sure back in their mind, MKK was picked due to their desire for a more capable flanker platform better suited for long range and multi-role missions. That seems to have been the objective based on people involved in the project. They didn't think they could make platform improvements as well as Sukhoi, so they went for the best platform available at the earliest point. With all that experience on it, they were able to develop J-16 based on all the experiences they've. Now, they have the most capable flanker aircraft in service anywhere. J-16 will also have application long after J-20 joins service in large numbers. If they had waited for the best Russian electronics before purchasing MKK, they would have never got the chance to develop J-16.

In the product development process, this is called agile process. The Chinese call it "running faster at smaller incremental steps" (小步快跑). Essentially, the idea is to manage the risks of developing large and complex products by faster product iteration cycles, each with smaller incremental improvements.

Over the last two decades, China has conducted development of more defense products (both PLAAF and PLAN) than any other countries in the world, and has made huge strides across the board. They have developed and advanced the related technology and industrial bases and human capital, in addition to completing multiple generations of new platforms and systems. The success has many contributing factors, but sound product management and project management processes are one of the more important ones.
 

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
That's not exactly what I am referring to. Obviously, having 2 competing companies allow them to progress faster in both j10 and flankers. That was something they had for a long time.

What I see differently is how they approached the induction of flankers vs how other countries did, namely India. Everything they did was something that you'd only expect to see in China. When they chose to license manufacture, they did not look to license manufacture the most advanced variant available. The technology on Su-30MKI is clearly more advanced. However, they needed the capability sooner. They wanted to get access to flanker assembly sooner, so that they can raise the level of SAC sooner and indigenize sooner. They had confidence that they'd be able to fully indigenize a modern 4th generation aircraft. Similarly, they didn't get license production of AL-31, but they set up the largest MRO plant for it outside of Russia. It was capable of pretty much everything other than producing new AL-31.

When they were procuring MKK, they knew it didn't have advanced electronics or sophisticated missiles. However, they were confident that better domestic options were coming along, so they ordered it for immediate capabilities anyhow. I'm sure back in their mind, MKK was picked due to their desire for a more capable flanker platform better suited for long range and multi-role missions. That seems to have been the objective based on people involved in the project. They didn't think they could make platform improvements as well as Sukhoi, so they went for the best platform available at the earliest point. With all that experience on it, they were able to develop J-16 based on all the experiences they've. Now, they have the most capable flanker aircraft in service anywhere. J-16 will also have application long after J-20 joins service in large numbers. If they had waited for the best Russian electronics before purchasing MKK, they would have never got the chance to develop J-16.

I don't think China did anything special really, I think India just did everything wrong.
Basically you are praising China for training for a few months before running a marathon, and India just trying to run it.
Even today India only can fabricate something like half the BOM in the MKI, China can build 100% of any Flanker including engines. This really should not be acceptable from any normal organizational standpoint.
If you think about it, if you pop in the WS-10 TVC into a J-15 airframe and use the J-16 avionics, you basically have Su-30MKI Made in China edition.
India simply did/does not have the industrial base to undertake the manufacturing of an advanced fighter, their leadership simply ignored this.

The capability of the Flanker airframe recognized from the get go when the PLAAF pushed for it vs. the MiG-29 that was offered. Laypeople on the internet (aka "The Drive") will always talk about how shameful the Chinese are at "copying" the Flanker. Putting aside the fact that this was a paid for project, anyone with a functional brain cell can see this was a carefully considered procurement from the beginning. As you mentioned, done in a time when China didn’t have the financial and technological tools available now.
 

weig2000

Captain
I don't think China did anything special really, I think India just did everything wrong.
Basically you are praising China for training for a few months before running a marathon, and India just trying to run it.
Even today India only can fabricate something like half the BOM in the MKI, China can build 100% of any Flanker including engines. This really should not be acceptable from any normal organizational standpoint.
If you think about it, if you pop in the WS-10 TVC into a J-15 airframe and use the J-16 avionics, you basically have Su-30MKI Made in China edition.
India simply did/does not have the industrial base to undertake the manufacturing of an advanced fighter, their leadership simply ignored this.

The capability of the Flanker airframe recognized from the get go when the PLAAF pushed for it vs. the MiG-29 that was offered. Laypeople on the internet (aka "The Drive") will always talk about how shameful the Chinese are at "copying" the Flanker. Putting aside the fact that this was a paid for project, anyone with a functional brain cell can see this was a carefully considered procurement from the beginning. As you mentioned, done in a time when China didn’t have the financial and technological tools available now.

You'd be so wrong, in fact.

It's not so much India did everything wrong, which is rather the norm, not just for India to be fair. It's that China has done almost everything so right, starting from a very low base. It's easy to look at where China is today and comment with hindsight that what it's done is common sense and no big deal. You need to follow and understand the development history of at least the last quarter century and know where its military-industrial complex stood to begin to appreciate that it's almost a miracle.
 

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
You'd be so wrong, in fact.

It's not so much India did everything wrong, which is rather the norm, not just for India to be fair. It's that China has done almost everything so right, starting from a very low base. It's easy to look at where China is today and comment with hindsight that what it's done is common sense and no big deal. You need to follow and understand the development history of at least the last quarter century and know where its military-industrial complex stood to begin to appreciate that it's almost a miracle.
Maybe I sounded too dismissive at the beginning, set the wrong tone. Of course I know what you mean, in the early 90’s you still had guys in the factory with white “wife beater” tank tops hand welding parts, now it’s robots.

What I was getting at was the comparison to India. If India is cranking out their version of MKI like China is with the J-11/15/16 today, then there is no comparison.

J-11 series is actually my favourite PLAAF project. J-10 is a dead end of sorts, J-20 is too secretive, and J-35 is still too early. J-11 has an interesting storyline, many variants, and looks great too.
 
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