China Flanker Thread II

[Air Force Brat]

USAF hasn't received a non-VLO combat aircraft (ok, a non-VLO "fast jet") since 2001 when F-15E deliveries concluded. The only people still buying F-15s, F-16s, or F/A-18s are those who aren't cleared to receive F-22 or F-35, or those who need deliveries before those VLO aircraft are ready. Ok, and (maybe) Israel.

Most of China's current inventory is decades younger than USAF's non-VLO inventory. Even without J-11D (or J-10D, which would be a rather more sensible project), China is going to have >1000 non-VLO fast jets buzzing around for decades to come. There is no need, once equivalent next-generation platforms reach production status, to add even more legacy airframes to the inventory.



China faces only high-end threats, unlike USAF (which, again, has not received a non-VLO fast jet in fifteen years now) or European powers, China has no interest in bombing third-world nations. As such China has a greater imperative to transition to next-generation VLO platforms as rapidly and completely as possible than US or European nations do.

The US Navy is still buying F-18s, China continues to build the J-10, J-11??, J-15, J-16, and probably will build more J-11Ds, so yes high end 4th gen aircraft are still in hi demand. Of course there are many foreign customers as well.

Yes, the F-35 is also in extremely high demand, and like you I believe 5th gen is worth the price of admission, but that doesn't mean high end 4 Gens are ready for the dumpster.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Russia doesn't have any heavy fighters for sale besides Su-35. Whether or not the PLAAF was interested in TVC doesn't matter, if they want a fighter from Russia, TVC comes attached.

Also, we have no idea what the main reason was for purchasing Su-35s. Word on the rumour mill is they need them to make up for a shortfall in numbers. In any case, the USAF wasn't impressed by India's MKIs with their flashy TVCs and I'd wager the PLAAF wouldn't be, either. Like I said, they will learn a lot from operating and dissecting Su-35s but applying TVC in combat will not be one of them... unless they're feeling suicidal.

I assure you, that Sukhoi would be more than happy to build China, any kind of Flanker they desire, with or without OVT?? just as Boeing and Lockheed continue to build F-15's, F-16's, and F-18's to their customers desires.

Your last paragraph is indeed puzzling, the Chinese will indeed use the 4++ gen SU-35 in combat with OVT fully functional, to imply otherwise is to display an extreme lack of understanding of the function and usefulness of OVT??? I can assure you that the Russians, Indians, and US F-22s use OVT everyday, and in EVERY engagement with the simulated OP-FOR, and China will do the same.

your bizarre last sentence, "unless they're feeling suicidal"?? is completely devoid of logic?? locking the OVT out is just plain NOT in the equation, OVT is functional everyday, in every maneuvering contest, and it is a "winner", unless abused by the un-initiated.... I can assure you the Indians got an "initiation" at Red Flag!

 

[kwaigonegin]

I assure you, that Sukhoi would be more than happy to build China, any kind of Flanker they desire, with or without OVT?? just as Boeing and Lockheed continue to build F-15's, F-16's, and F-18's to their customers desires.

Your last paragraph is indeed puzzling, the Chinese will indeed use the 4++ gen SU-35 in combat with OVT fully functional, to imply otherwise is to display an extreme lack of understanding of the function and usefulness of OVT??? I can assure you that the Russians, Indians, and US F-22s use OVT everyday, and in EVERY engagement with the simulated OP-FOR, and China will do the same.

your bizarre last sentence, "unless they're feeling suicidal"?? is completely devoid of logic?? locking the OVT out is just plain NOT in the equation, OVT is functional everyday, in every maneuvering contest, and it is a "winner", unless abused by the un-initiated.... I can assure you the Indians got an "initiation" at Red Flag!

Also, we have no idea what the main reason was for purchasing Su-35s. Word on the rumour mill is they need them to make up for a shortfall in numbers. In any case, the USAF wasn't impressed by India's MKIs with their flashy TVCs and I'd wager the PLAAF wouldn't be, either. Like I said, they will learn a lot from operating and dissecting Su-35s but applying TVC in combat will not be one of them... unless they're feeling suicidal.[/QUOTE]

I agree, TVC will certainly come into play if the Gen 5 or even a Gen 4 fighter ever finds itself in CQC. Under the hands of a competent pilot TVC can also be used effectively to evade bogeys in concert with ECM and/or other active CMs.
I would not discount TVC's usefulness by any means.

A good pilot knows how to properly manage energy loss and while TVC bleeds significant kinetic energy and momentum loss, he or she would know to fully utilize it at the proper time and instance to his or her advantage.
That's what CQC/WVR engagement/missile evasion is all about if you think about it.. and some luck of course.

At the end of the day, the driver that is most familiar and adept at using and manipulating the physics of his ride to his advantage likely will be the one who walks away, again luck not withstanding.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Also, we have no idea what the main reason was for purchasing Su-35s. Word on the rumour mill is they need them to make up for a shortfall in numbers. In any case, the USAF wasn't impressed by India's MKIs with their flashy TVCs and I'd wager the PLAAF wouldn't be, either. Like I said, they will learn a lot from operating and dissecting Su-35s but applying TVC in combat will not be one of them... unless they're feeling suicidal.

I agree, TVC will certainly come into play if the Gen 5 or even a Gen 4 fighter ever finds itself in CQC. Under the hands of a competent pilot TVC can also be used effectively to evade bogeys in concert with ECM and/or other active CMs.
I would not discount TVC's usefulness by any means.

A good pilot knows how to properly manage energy loss and while TVC bleeds significant kinetic energy and momentum loss, he or she would know to fully utilize it at the proper time and instance to his or her advantage.
That's what CQC/WVR engagement/missile evasion is all about if you think about it.. and some luck of course.

At the end of the day, the driver that is most familiar and adept at using and manipulating the physics of his ride to his advantage likely will be the one who walks away, again luck not withstanding.[/QUOTE]

Exactly, and in simulated combat, ie Red Flag, you let the kids and the Indians make all the "goofy mistakes", I can assure you that part of that training is to allow you to extend your options past the "optimum", so that you can see the error of "bleeding energy" all the way to the bank...

At the end of the day, every engagement is different, and the first guy to an accurate shooting solution wins, movie hype and internet fighter pilot wisdom not with standing??

 

[Lethe]

The US Navy is still buying F-18s, China continues to build the J-10, J-11??, J-15, J-16, and probably will build more J-11Ds, so yes high end 4th gen aircraft are still in hi demand. Of course there are many foreign customers as well.

USN is buying F/A-18E/Fs because unlike USAF it actually needs to buy aircraft on a regular schedule owing to greater airframe loads imposing more rigid fatigue limits on carrier-based aircraft. USN needed Super Hornet to replace A-6, EA-6s, and F-14s as they wore out, and is beginning to replace vanilla Hornets owing to delays with the F-35 program. But there is no long- or even medium-term plan to continue producing Super Hornet alongside F-35. One is replacing the other in production, just as J-20 should replace J-11.

Yes, the F-35 is also in extremely high demand, and like you I believe 5th gen is worth the price of admission, but that doesn't mean high end 4 Gens are ready for the dumpster.

I didn't say that legacy aircraft are "ready for the dumpster" -- on the contrary, I noted that China, like other nations, will continue to operate large numbers of legacy aircraft for decades to come -- but they are ready to stop rolling off the production line.

 

[zaphd]

USN is buying F/A-18E/Fs because unlike USAF it actually needs to buy aircraft on a regular schedule owing to greater airframe loads imposing more rigid fatigue limits on carrier-based aircraft. USN needed Super Hornet to replace A-6, EA-6s, and F-14s as they wore out, and is beginning to replace vanilla Hornets owing to delays with the F-35 program. But there is no long- or even medium-term plan to continue producing Super Hornet alongside F-35. One is replacing the other in production, just as J-20 should replace J-11.

There could be industrial policy reasons to procure 4th and 5th gen aircraft with similar size and role at the same time. That is to maintain two separate fighter design and manufacturing entities in China, even if they are both under AVIC.

 

[defenceman]

Hi @ Lethe as you said they should replace j11 as they are making j20
But on this forum I have seen members posting j11d pictures so are they
Still producing j11 ?
Thx

 

[Air Force Brat]

Hi @ Lethe as you said they should replace j11 as they are making j20
But on this forum I have seen members posting j11d pictures so are they
Still producing j11 ?
Thx

There have been lots of rumblings on the cancellation of the J-11B and now apparently, there are so issues with the D, but make no mistake, they will continue to manufacture or buy Flankers?? and now that the SU-35 has been purchased by China, it is also under the umbrella of Chinese Flankers.

 

[Air Force Brat]

There have been lots of rumblings on the cancellation of the J-11B and now apparently, there are so issues with the D, but make no mistake, they will continue to manufacture or buy Flankers?? and now that the SU-35 has been purchased by China, it is also under the umbrella of Chinese Flankers.

I'm supposing we should be expecting the next 10 sometime this summer and the remaining 10 by years end?

 

[PanAsian]

USAF hasn't received a non-VLO combat aircraft (ok, a non-VLO "fast jet") since 2001 when F-15E deliveries concluded. The only people still buying F-15s, F-16s, or F/A-18s are those who aren't cleared to receive F-22 or F-35, or those who need deliveries before those VLO aircraft are ready. Ok, and (maybe) Israel.

Most of China's current inventory is decades younger than USAF's non-VLO inventory. Even without J-11D (or J-10D, which would be a rather more sensible project), China is going to have >1000 non-VLO fast jets buzzing around for decades to come. There is no need, once equivalent next-generation platforms reach production status, to add even more legacy airframes to the inventory.

China faces only high-end threats, unlike USAF (which, again, has not received a non-VLO fast jet in fifteen years now) or European powers, China has no interest in bombing third-world nations. As such China has a greater imperative to transition to next-generation VLO platforms as rapidly and completely as possible than US or European nations do.

I think you are underestimating China's and the PLA's financial constraints.