China Flanker Thread II

[i.e.]

I think there are two major differences between STOBAR and CATOBAR carrier fighters. The latter has provision for a nose landing gear attachment to the catapult, as well as additional structural strengthening horizontally to endure the stresses of a catapult launch.


I wonder if the next J-15 variant will seek to be made CATOBAR capable. It actually makes a bit of sense -- the structural modifications shouldn't be too strenuous, d.

the most strenuous on the airframe is always the landing part. basically the sinkrate of about 200-300 m/s
nose landing gear cat launch is nothing compare to those loads.

 

[SinoSoldier]

I think there are two major differences between STOBAR and CATOBAR carrier fighters. The latter has provision for a nose landing gear attachment to the catapult, as well as additional structural strengthening horizontally to endure the stresses of a catapult launch.

J-15 clearly doesn't have the former, and we've heard nothing about the latter in any rumours, so I expect the first production run of J-15 won't be capable of catapult launch.

There is a caveat though, namely EMALS is supposed to cause less stress on an aircraft than a steam catapult. But I doubt that will allow J-15s to be launched safely and consistently even if they somehow securely added on the required nosewheel hold back gear.

It makes sense since the first batch probably was originally meant to train the crew rather than to actually serve. It also suggests that the first indigenous carrier might not actually be CATOBAR. That supports the recent rumor that Dalian Shipyard has started on the construction of a carrier with a ski ramp.

Well we shouldn't sell J-15 too short.
It should still be able to fire AShMs and stand off weapons, probably some PGMs too, in addition to the standard BVR and WVR AAMs. More importantly, its sheer size and weight confers formidable endurance and range, the most of any carrier based fighter ever, and the ski jump, despite what ignorant media outlets repeat, can allow for take offs at or near MTOW.

It might lack AESA, its cockpit might still look like J-11Bs, but those are very bell-and-whistle, very ancillary capabilities. As it is, J-15 will be similar to an APG-73 equipped superbug.

A notional J-15B should definitely improve upon existing capabilities, via better radar, new cockpit, EW suite, and hopefully the new PL-10 as well, but what the PLAN is getting is definitely a very capable fighter -- in fact, as the Russians are about to retire the Su-33, PLAN will soon exclusively field the largest and heaviest carrierborne fighter in the world.

The Navy probably didn't add in enhancements for the starting batch of J-15s since they will be deployed onboard the Liaoning, a training carrier. However, it is almost certain that the ones that are slated for combat duties will have the said upgrades. Pupu (big shrimp) claimed that the J-15B will feature dramatically increased combat capabilities.

And regarding the size of the J-15, it would be nice if they actually served aboard a large carrier, i.e. > 80000 tons. Their large fuselage imparts a dramatic hindrance to the versatility and feasibility of air operations and hitting power. The "Liaoning" is more suited for a twin-engine J-10B with WS-13 installed.

In fact, a twin-engine J-10B would provide the PLAN with a small, extremely capable, and versatile fighter with capabilities rivaling that of the latest Eurofighter and Rafale. Hopefully the J-10C will be something like that (even though the chances are pretty slim).

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I wonder if the next J-15 variant will seek to be made CATOBAR capable. It actually makes a bit of sense -- the structural modifications shouldn't be too strenuous, and they'll only need to refit the existing plane with newer avionics; the production methods can remain mostly similar. Far less of a modification from J-10A to J-10B and definitely less than J-11B to J-15.
If the first indigenous carrier is CATOBAR, I wonder if SAC will only order enough J-15s to fit two or so Liaoning airwings (say, 2 x 24 = 48) so each airwing can rotate on different deployments, and then have all follow on J-15s be the "B" version, designed for the 002 carriers.
If the first indigenous carrier is STOBAR/001A, we might see more J-15s than expected.

The jump from J-15 to J-15B will be similar to that from F-15C to F-15C "Golden Eagle" upgrade. In fact the old batch might be upgraded as well.

 

[Blitzo]

It makes sense since the first batch probably was originally meant to train the crew rather than to actually serve. It also suggests that the first indigenous carrier might not actually be CATOBAR. That supports the recent rumor that Dalian Shipyard has started on the construction of a carrier with a ski ramp.


The Navy probably didn't add in enhancements for the starting batch of J-15s since they will be deployed onboard the Liaoning, a training carrier. However, it is almost certain that the ones that are slated for combat duties will have the said upgrades. Pupu (big shrimp) claimed that the J-15B will feature dramatically increased combat capabilities.

... Do you seriously think liaoning is a training carrier and that J-15 isn't slated for "combat duties"??

Simply because J-15 lacks AESA or newer avionics or whatever?

The navy probably didn't want the bells and whistles because they realized they weren't essential and couldn't be delivered in time, and recall their carrierborne combat capability when the decision was made would have been nil.

And regarding the size of the J-15, it would be nice if they actually served aboard a large carrier, i.e. > 80000 tons. Their large fuselage imparts a dramatic hindrance to the versatility and feasibility of air operations and hitting power. The "Liaoning" is more suited for a twin-engine J-10B with WS-13 installed.

In fact, a twin-engine J-10B would provide the PLAN with a small, extremely capable, and versatile fighter with capabilities rivaling that of the latest Eurofighter and Rafale. Hopefully the J-10C will be something like that (even though the chances are pretty slim).

The PLAN didn't originally choose a naval J-10 for the exact reason because it was too small.
Modifying a J-10 to have two engines and to navalize it would be a waste of resources and provide no additional capability which J-15 already has and the money would be better spent on developing a medium weight 5th generation carrier fighter instead


I imagine there is a mathematical way to calculate the optimal proportion of heavy and medium weight fighters for any carrier of a particular type, weight, and flight deck area, but the PLAN chose J-15 as its first naval fighter knowing they would give up fighter quantity for greater range, payload and endurance.
I don't think liaoning is so small that it's complement of J-15s — while less than what a true super carrier can carry — won't be able to conduct a good sortie rate.
For instance, a kuznetsov sized carrier will obviously hold more fulcrums than flankers simply because the Mig-29K is a smaller aircraft. So a kuznetsov with a full airwing of migs can do more sorties than a full airwing of flankers, at the expense of range and payload of each average sortie. However even a full airwing of flankers may still generate acceptable sortie rates if the navy deemed range and payload as more important.
But a smaller carrier such as vikramditya with a full airwing of migs vs flankers can probably only sustain an acceptable sortie rate with the former, because the carrier's full airwing of flankers are simply too few for consistent operations.

 

[thunderchief]

I think there are two major differences between STOBAR and CATOBAR carrier fighters. The latter has provision for a nose landing gear attachment to the catapult, as well as additional structural strengthening horizontally to endure the stresses of a catapult launch.

First part is true (about cats&bars on nose gear ) , but there is no need for additional strengthening . Planes like J-15/Su-33/Mig-29K already endure high stress when landing (from around 130 kts to zero in few seconds) . That is similar acceleration as in catapult launch , only in reverse . Also , when launching , catapults or not , you need to achieve takeoff speed until the end of deck . In simplest terms , you would have something like l=a*t*t/2 , where a is acceleration , l is length of deck , t is time of acceleration . Speed at the end of the deck would be v= 2*l/t . Now , when launching heavier aircraft (laden with ordnance and fuel) , you need more speed at the end of the deck , but not that much more , something like 10 % . Therefore , acceleration will need to increase 21 % - that is well within tolerance limits of said aircraft .

 

[Franklin]

We need to get away from the idea that the Liaoning is just a "training carrier". If it can launch and land planes that can fight then its a aircraft carrier simple as that. The J-15 is just a navalized version of the basic J-11B. It doesn't have the fancy avionics and electronics of the J-10B and the J-16 but still a very potent platform. The Liaoning won't be going to fight anyone any time soon. Even after the Liaoning recieve a full air wing it will still take a couple of years before they are ready for any real military operations. But after that the Liaoning will be a potent asset in the PLAN and for China.

 

[asif iqbal]

PS: ... fits just nicely to the post above !

If this is unit 103 of SP then I would think they have built certainly 8-12 units plus those prototypes

You never know J11B production is fast they could have 24 already they could easily complete 2 per month

 

[will]

4 Deino

Sorry, I tried to use other mechanism to say this man very thanks, but they don't work... Thank you so much!

 

[Deino]

Re: 4 Deino

Sorry, I tried to use other mechanism to say this man very thanks, but they don't work... Thank you so much!

Hi Will !!!

You are wellcome ... but why do You thank me so much ?? ... simply for posting an image !??

Or have I dome something I should know ?

Cheers, Deino

 

[Deino]

These are clearly AL-31Fs !

 

[Jeff Head]

These are clearly AL-31Fs !

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I cannot read the number on that aircraft...but it does not appear to be the one we have seen on board the Liaoning.

I wonder how many of them there are? It would be very neat to see 4-6 of these fly aboard the Liaoning in the SCS.