China Flanker Thread II

[MiG-29]

well, J-16 is based on Su-30MKK and supposed to be the Chinese equivalent of Su-34 or at least it will be used in that role. There is no evidence at the moment that China wants to purchase Su-34.

As for does it make sense to replace H-6 with Su-34? Of course not. Would you replace Y-8 with a F-22? As I said, they play different roles, despite its age, H-6 can carry far more ordinence over longer range than Su-34? You can post your links of the advertised most optimal payload and range numbers, but they really have no relevance in the real world. You put 2 CJ-10s on Su-34, it will be able to take off, do a circle and then have to land.

See that the article says partially replace, why? simply because Su-34 can only take some missions of Tu-22Ms, no one said the jet is an strategic bomber, but a fighter bomber with 9G capability, something the JH-7 won`t be able to do, niether the JH-7 will fly at low altitude as smooth as the Su-34, J-16 won`t have the confort Su-34 offers.

Will China buy it, no i do not know niether i am saying they will, has China something comparable, well, uhmmm not they do not, do they need Su-34, i do not know, the H-6 is not as fast, niether offers greater payload, it offers another weapon, which basicly is a cruise missile, but Tu-22M3 is in the VVS, however to fly some missions with Tu-22M3 is not necesary, so there is where Su-34 enters into action.


Aircraft performance
Normal takeoff mass, kg 38,240
Maximum ordnance, kg 8,000
Service ceiling (without external ordnance and stores), km 15
Maximum flight speed at sea level (without external ordnance and stores), km/h 1,400
Maximum flight speed at altitude (without external ordnance and stores), km/h 1,900
G-limit (operational) 9
Maximum range, km 1,100
Ferry range, km 4,000
Maximum airborne time (pilot-dependent), hours 10

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So what is what the Su-34 really offers, better ride than F-15E and Su-30MKK, better comfort for long flights, armoured cockpit and very important an agile machine.

See they say 10 hours endurance (pilot dependent) that means in a less comfortable aircraft the pilot suffers more, thus more stress upon the pilot and more overlaod in the pilots mind.

The Su-34 is also faster, so it means it will reach the destination quicker and escape interceptors quicker.

But of course, at this moment we do not need to think China is making a Su-34 equivalent, but belittling the Su-34 is not the way to say why China won`t buy it or build it, perhaps simply they are content with what they have now and is cheaper to keep what they have now, but the SU-34 is a very good aircraft.

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[Jeff Head]

Tell me Brat, if you have to use 2 JDAMS at a Max of 18 miles around 27km from the target at best tell me then what is the use of stealth?

With two JDAMS and two AMRAAMs the use of stealth is that it allows you to get close in so you can drop the weaponry from 25-30 km away without getting shot down.

What someone can do in an exercises is not necessarily at all what will happen in combat when the F-22 will be trying to avoid contact and make the strike as opposed to operating under very specific ROE and having to make contact with the opponent fighter in the exercise.

Do you know that Eurofighter did detect the F-22 at 50km

Moreover, at a distance of about 50 km the Typhoon IRST (Infra-Red Search and Track) system is capable to find even a stealthy plane “especially if it is large and hot, like the F-22″ a Eurofighter pilot said.

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You have to take into account the context and the limitation placed on the exercise before you make too strong a determination regardng it.

In almost all cases, the F-22s are being significantly limited so that other aircraft have a chance. In particular this usually means that the F-22 cannot use its BVR capabilities, and certain other capabilities so that the exercises levels the playing field. Leveling the playing field in an exercise with allies is nothing like combat.

So F-22 with JDAMs is not superior to a Su-34 simply because it needs to get close.

Again, that conclusion does not necessarily follow from what I just explained. in addition, if the F-22 wants to be a standoff Strke Fighter, it can be made to do that with its own hard points. but, because there are so few F-22s it is not likely that they will do this.

Now, the SU-34 is one heck of a good 4th+ gen strike aircraft, and will perform a 4th+ gen strike role very well. But it has pluses and minuses, just like the F-22 does in that role. And they are different pluses and minuses.

Now you have new radars and new systems to fight stealth, in fact S-400 can engage a soccer ball target at flying supersonic using UHF radar and bistatic radars in conjuction with an AESA radar and its missiles are capable to down missiles?.

So despite you think F-22 is unvulnerable, at close range it is as vulnerable as Su-34, Su-34 has the advantage of carrying KH-31s which allows it to fire them at longer ranges.

Engaging a soccer ball target at at what range? At what altitude? It is a stealth soccer ball? hehehe...actually all of these things matter.

The F-22 is not invulnerable. No one has said that it is. It does happen to be the best fifth generation stealth aircraft out there...and I would rather have its capabilities in my inventory and work with them to design a specific mission, than not have them. As I am sure any other nation would too.

[/quote]That is the real reason why the US is designing a new bomber.[/quote]Actually, not. The US is designing a new bomber because it needs a new bomber. The F-22A is not a bomber in any case. The F-22A could perform a strike role, but the US is already designing and now manufacturing and putting into production its new "Strike Fighter," the F-35, which will fulfill that role nicely.

Either in a stealth mode with smaller precision guided munitions for very sepcifc targeting, or in larger payloads when the air superiority has been won and most anti-air threats cleared, when it will then perform the strike role with more weapons on its pylons.

F-22 is limited on its internal capability, its weapons bays once it carries 2 JDAMs it will only allow 2 AIM-120s, which means lower ability to down an enemy interceptor since it means AIM-120 also fails, forcing the F-22 to WVR combat where it is vulnerable as Eurofighter has shown with EODAS.

If the F-22 needs a larger payload, it can carry them. It was DESIGNED to have the weapons bays that is has so it can also function in the stealth mode for air to air, or air to ground...but predominantly air to air. It is likely that if four aircraft were sent in, loaded up for air to ground with their eight JDAMs or whatever in the future is qualified for use from those bays, there very well could be two more F-22As escorting them which are loaded up completely in the stealth configuration with all of their AMRAAMs.

JH-7 or Su-30MKK are shorter range aicraft.
H-6 is obsolete.

The H-6 is not obsolete. It is being used and has new builds being made by the PRC. Clearly, they do not view it as obsolete.

It just depends on the mission.

As a bomb carrier in an air dominance environment with little anti-air threat, it will perfrom very well.

In a standoff ALCM role, where it can launch its missiles form beyond anti-air ground defenses, or before it is intercepted, it will perform well...just like the B-52 does.

Clearly, as a penetrating strike aircraft, it is not suited for that role to go up against and penetrate well defended targets who have both modern (say 4th gen) aircraft and anti-air defenses. But that is not what the PRC is using it for.

 

[MiG-29]

With two JDAMS and two AMRAAMs the use of stealth is that it allows you to get close in so you can drop the weaponry from 25-30 km away without getting shot down.

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That is not assure now, in 1990 maybe, now, who knows, S-400s are designed to engage Stealth aircraft and are designed to have a max engagement range of 400km, it can down even missiles, so speed is no problem.


Now 400km is a lot of range, 50km is very likely a range where they will detect the F-22, since the Russians have other radars that were able to detect F-117 with UHF radars and some claim they even can detect B-2s.

at 200km maybe the F-22 is safe, 150km perhaps stealth still works, 100km pretty much is likely it can detect the F-22 without problems since even IRST systems can detect it.

So at the end of the mission i do not think the F-22 offers any advantage over a SU-34 since Su-34 has missiles with 140 km of range

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[Jeff Head]

That is not assure now, in 1990 maybe, now, who knows, S-400s are designed to engage Stealth aircraft and are designed to have a max engagement range of 400km, it can down even missiles, so speed is no problem.

50km is very likely a range where they will detect the F-22, since the Russians have other radars that were able to detect F-117 with UHF radars and some claim they even can detect B-2s.

at 200km maybe the F-22 is safe, 150km perhaps stealth still works, 100km pretty much is likely it can detect the F-22 without problems since even IRST systems can detect it.

You are basing a lot on the claim by the Eurofighter having detected the F-22 at 50km in a Red Flag exercise. As I stated, be careful of using that as a projection. The F-22 was operating under very strict ROEs and specific conditions imposed on it for those exercises.

It will not have those rules or restrictions in a combat situation. In that situation it will be using everything it has to avoid detection and engagement...in the Red Flag exercise, by design it is meant to enage and give the opponent a chance. In combat the altitude, the profile, the ECM and many other parameters will be much different that they are in an exercise like that.

[quote-Mig-20]So at the end of the mission i do not think the F-22 offers any advantage over a SU-34 since Su-34 has missiles with 140 km of range

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[/QUOTE]Well, if you think the F-22 has no advantage over an SU-34 in such a mission, then you are simply whistling past the graveyard.

As I stated, if the US wants the F-22 to be a standoff strike airctraft like you are describing, they can easily make it one. They have room in the weapons bay and on hardpoints for those types of missiles. In that role, the F-22 would bring a lot to the party. Still more stealithy, superior infrared protection, supersonic cruise, much better able to protect itself, and probably as long if not longer ranged weapons i fthe US chose to go that route.

Now, the fact is that this scenario will probably never play out because it is doubtful that the US will use the F-22 in such a role. There are simply too few of them.

However, the Joint Strike Fighter, the F-35, is designed to do just that. It will bring its stealth to the game and be able to launch standoff missiles, and many other ordinance types depending on the mission, from either its weapons bays or hardpoints under its wings.

This does not diminish the fact that the SU-34 is a very good 4th gen+ strike aircraft. it has good range, can carry a very decent amount of ordinance, and has very good flight and avionics characteristics.

I personally doubt however that the Chinese will buy any from the Russians. They may produce something of their own based on the SU-27 airframe design, but at this stage, with them having developed their own J-20 and J-31, I expect ultimately they will produce something of their own.

 

[shen]

Why did Russia go to all the trouble of redesigning the entire front fuselage for Su-34? The supposed benefit of side-by-side seating is limited at best, otherwise we would see that arrangement more in other attack/strike aircraft since the A-6. Want more payload and range? Just build a version of the Su-30 with strengthened airframe, uprated engines and conformal fuel tanks. Fitted with attack radar and avionics. Basic the F-15E route. Doesn't that give you 99% of the capability at far less development cost or ease of maintenance due to commonality?

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

Why did Russia go to all the trouble of redesigning the entire front fuselage for Su-34? The supposed benefit of side-by-side seating is limited at best, otherwise we would see that arrangement more in other attack/strike aircraft since the A-6. Want more payload and range? Just build a version of the Su-30 with strengthened airframe, uprated engines and conformal fuel tanks. Fitted with attack radar and avionics. Basic the F-15E route. Doesn't that give you 99% of the capability at far less development cost or ease of maintenance due to commonality?

Answer duration. The crew of a F15e are strapped to a ejecttion seat breathing though hoses wearing heavy helmets they can only move a little they are directly undert what is basicly a armored greenhouse roasting in light freezing in shadow. And dont ask about having to take a leak or a dump. SU34 crew have a pressurised cockpit can lay down and take a nap can heat a meal can stand up and they have a toilet. Think about that that means the crew of the SU34 are more alert and can stay up longer covering more range.

 

[Lion]

Answer duration. The crew of a F15e are strapped to a ejecttion seat breathing though hoses wearing heavy helmets they can only move a little they are directly undert what is basicly a armored greenhouse roasting in light freezing in shadow. And dont ask about having to take a leak or a dump. SU34 crew have a pressurised cockpit can lay down and take a nap can heat a meal can stand up and they have a toilet. Think about that that means the crew of the SU34 are more alert and can stay up longer covering more range.

Su-34 having a toilet is a myth.

 

[kwaigonegin]

Su-34 having a toilet is a myth.

I don't think it is. Now I wold agree it's not a toilet toilet like a commode or urinal BUT I am quite certain it has some sort of device where the pilots can umm relieve themselves. Aerodynamics etc aside the biggest advantage the SU-34 has over similar type aircraft is like what T_E said and that is a HUGE flight deck. The side by side seating arrangement (as oppose to tandem) also allows significant crew comfort. And there are pictures where an average size person can stand up in the cockpit. Again NOT big enough to do jumping jacks but enough where one can at least sorta stand up.

Fighter pilots in general are a lil on the short side anyway so that's a plus as well. Very long legs is dangerous to the knee caps when you eject!

 

[MiG-29]

You are basing a lot on the claim by the Eurofighter having detected the F-22 at 50km in a Red Flag exercise. As I stated, be careful of using that as a projection. The F-22 was operating under very strict ROEs and specific conditions imposed on it for those exercises.

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That first is a way to claim IRST systems stop working, technically the IRST systems is not affected by any restriction beyond bad weather.

Yes, IRST systems are only afected by weather, F-22 has two sources of heat, its airframe that is heating due to speed, so faster it goes, hotter it gets; the other sources is its engine plume, which still needs to exhaust hot air from the nozzle, consider the F119 is very powerful so it gets its 16000kg+ of thrust by kinetic energy and this means the air is hot.

Now there is no technical restriction on IRST systems as you claim.

Now Captor is an old radar, so old Eurofighter needs E captor, but we are talking S-400 a systems that uses UHF waves that are not affected by RAM or shaping, and uses even an EASA radar.


You think that F-22 is unvulnerable, un-detectable, that is not true, F-22 can be detected, even by old systems, as i told you a soccer ball pretty much is a ver small size, by the way 400km of engagement capability.

The reality at 28km, F-22 will be detected, even at 60-80km, the JDAMs are useless, that is the reality.


You re not thinking with logic, first the F-22 will destroy enemy fighters and B-2s and F-15E destroy SAMs, AWACs and Radar stations and later F-22 will start doing bombig missions when there is little probability it might be down.

Another factor you do see is F-22 is delicate, AAA is very dangerous, even a Rifle

see watch video

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He is the designer of F-16 says a rifle will down it, compare the Su-34 has armoured cockpit and Russia still retains Su-25s

 

[MiG-29]

Answer duration. The crew of a F15e are strapped to a ejecttion seat breathing though hoses wearing heavy helmets they can only move a little they are directly undert what is basicly a armored greenhouse roasting in light freezing in shadow. And dont ask about having to take a leak or a dump. SU34 crew have a pressurised cockpit can lay down and take a nap can heat a meal can stand up and they have a toilet. Think about that that means the crew of the SU34 are more alert and can stay up longer covering more range.

Su-33KUB also has side by side seating, however according to what i read, the duckbill radome does indeed reduce RCS, it is not a stealth fighter, true, but it has reduced RCS, plus it offers extra fuselage lift with the duckbill radome.
Su-34 also has better forward visibility than Su-33KUB