escobar
Brigadier
I have not seen it.
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China Flanker Thread II
- Thread starter sumdud
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I have not seen it.
The requirement for j10 is greater because its a single engine aircraft. You also cant put the same engine from flankers on j10 because the location of the gearbox. They have been developing a version for j10 but it really doesnt make sense to put it on j10a since it is almost finished production. They have been testing taihang on b. Once it is deemed to be reliable, you will see it on production variants.
Come on! You sound as the gearbox thing is a massive engineering feat that will derail WS-10A on J-10A/B? If we have seen J-11A fitted with AL-31 engines and then retrofit with WS-10A. I don't think that is a great issue? Same as J-10B earlier prototypes are fitted with AL-31FN before J-10B 1035 fitted with domestic engines.
Further more J-10B project are exceptionally long compare to other newer projects.More than 3 years since prototype appeared. yes, There is some structural changes but not until the extension of causing such long delay. If we have seen project like JF-17, J-11 series moving so fast and they are in no way easier than J-10B.. You can see J-10A is only able to move on by buying more Russian AL-31FN engines.
But I believe Shenyang in the end will still support Chengdu serial production of J-10B if it did enter services.. Shenyang now is only trying a delay games. Delaying Chengdu project as long as possible so that PLAAF and PLAN will buy more of their J-11 series aircraft since they cant wait so long for J-10B. While leaving Chengdu fill up a much smaller amount of PLAAF/PLAN requirement with their J-10A using russian AL-31FN engines.
I suspect even J-10B did enter service or operational. It will be in limited numbers like a hundred and no more. All thanks to Shenyang liming.
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I would agree with you that J-10B seems to be taking longer than expected. But I have a hard time to believe in your Shenyang "conspiracy" theory. It just defies common sense.
First, Shenyang or Shenyang Liming does not dictate which aircraft gets the priority of being fitted with WS-10A. It's really PLA - the customer - who decides which aircraft has the priority. I can't believe Shenyang can play any spoiler role there. We're not talking about any civilian products here.
Second, WS-10A's production rate is obviously constrained, therefore you have to prioritize the demands and allocate the produced WS-10A accordingly. J-15 obviously has the priority over J-10B; J-11B is a twin-engine aircraft and therefore is a safer platform for relatively new engine like WS-10A than a single-engine fighter like J-10B. J-16 is still under development, therefore it will get its WS-10A, just like J-10B for development purpose.
Finally, I also believe J-10B will eventually go into production and be fitted with WS-10A. This is a strategic decision made at the highest level of PLA long time ago, i.e., Taihang would eventually support both J-10 and J-11. We all know that development of J-10 has been benefited tremendously from the imported AF-31 - it wouldn't be too much an exaggeration to say that J-10 owed its meaningful existence to the Russian engine.
First, Shenyang or Shenyang Liming does not dictate which aircraft gets the priority of being fitted with WS-10A. It's really PLA - the customer - who decides which aircraft has the priority. I can't believe Shenyang can play any spoiler role there. We're not talking about any civilian products here.
Second, WS-10A's production rate is obviously constrained, therefore you have to prioritize the demands and allocate the produced WS-10A accordingly. J-15 obviously has the priority over J-10B; J-11B is a twin-engine aircraft and therefore is a safer platform for relatively new engine like WS-10A than a single-engine fighter like J-10B. J-16 is still under development, therefore it will get its WS-10A, just like J-10B for development purpose.
Finally, I also believe J-10B will eventually go into production and be fitted with WS-10A. This is a strategic decision made at the highest level of PLA long time ago, i.e., Taihang would eventually support both J-10 and J-11. We all know that development of J-10 has been benefited tremendously from the imported AF-31 - it wouldn't be too much an exaggeration to say that J-10 owed its meaningful existence to the Russian engine.
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Shenyang Liming do have the influence over their own products. There is specific reason why Shenyang and Chengdu still have their respective in charge and there is a competition to vie for PLAAF/PLAN order.
If PLA really has such a control, basic logic will be to allocate WS-10A to allow J-10A free of foreign engine supplier. I don't think its a matter of WS-10A reliabilities on single engine plane anymore. If WS-10A can fit on a unproven flying maiden prototypes to power to the skies. More or less tells you the reliability and maturity of this engine.
We have seen so many J-11 series aircraft power by Taihang engine and yet to see a proper operational J-10 fitted with domestic engine.
My best guess is Chengdu J-10B are waiting for Shenyang Liming to give the green light for first batch of domestic engine before they can be put into service.
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It is not just gearbox. Reliability is a huge issue and also ether variant developed for j10 has greater thrust according to Maya. 3 years sounds like a lot but really isn't that bad if you look at the changes they made to it. Just look at how long the j11b project took. This is no joke. As for j10b. The first production batch will be with al31fn most likely unless the variant for j10 is ready.
A bit of a newbish question: does the color of the radar dome indicate what type of radar will be used on the plane? Both J-10B and J-15 have grey radar domes. Is it safe to assume that some of electronically scanned radar will be used on the J-16 as well?
plawolf
Lieutenant General
You are reading too much into it.
As I and Tphuang have pointed out before, the J10A is near the end of it's production run. Starting work to integrate a new engine at this late stage, just as they are able to switch to J10B, really makes no sense.
With fighters, you can't just plug and play like changing a tire on a car. The rear fuselage of the J10A likely has provisions built in to allow the installation of a different engine, so structural changes needed should be minimal, but the FBW software is a completely different matter.
If you want to put in a new engine on the J10A, the weight distribution and thrust would all be different, you would beed to massively modify the FBW codes, and you would need to pretty much do most of the flight testing again to check that the re-written code performs as expected.
Such work could easily take a couple of years and cost tens of millions. Just because you can do sth does not always mean it makes sense to do so.
Why fix what isn't broken? Especially at sub great cost and delays? I think there is compelling indicators to suggest that China has completely mastered the AL31 to the point where they can make brand new improved versions of it if they so wish. If the Russians cut off new engines or spares support, the Chinese can make new engines and spares themselves to make up for the shortfall with little difficulty.
The only people who seem to be concerned that the J10A does not use a Chinese engine are fans who seem to only want the J10A with a Chinese engine for apparences sake.
Liming is a Chinese state owned company, and that means that ultimately they answers to the Chinese government. If they were deliberately playing favourites and denying CAC WS10As for no good reason, then the PLAAF will have the bosses at Liming replaced.
There might be some old boys connection favouritism, but it cannot and will not trump the PLAAF's wishes.
Putting WS10A on J11 and other flanker variants makes a lot of practical sense because your margin of error is far bigger with a twin engines fighter. No amount of lab testing can ultimately come close to testing the reliability of a design and production quality control like full scale fielding.
The F16's engines passed all sorts of tests before it was certified for production, but that still did not stop F16s crashing with enough frequency to earn the unofficial nickname of 'lawndart', how many J10A crashes have there been in comparison? Far better to swallow your pride for a little longer and make sure everything is 100% rather than rush things and have more crashes and lost lives as a result.
Besides, they have already been testing WS10A with J10Bs, so it is obviously good enough for single engine fighters. So I really don't see why anyone should be getting so worked up about J10As having them. The engine is obviously ready and will be fielded on the J10 as soon as the J10B is ready for production. It's not a question of 'if', only 'when'. So what's with all the fuss and urgency? Just to prove to the haters who keep bring up the Russian engines? They are haters and will always find something to whine and moan about. Why pay them any heed?
Do you have any source that says China can produce their own AL-31?
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