China Flanker Thread II

[Air Force Brat]

The number of missiles is a big issue, however in the current concept the F-22 is supposed to kill F-15s first without being seen.

T

That is why the F-22 carries so few AIM-9 and does not carry an IRST or HMS.



However if we are to believe the french, Rafale put a fierceful fight against the F-22 in WVR.
No frankly, I don't believe the French, look at the last election, mirrors our own lack of intellect, IMOH so no I don't believe them.
So here is what everyone is doing is to detect stealth fighters and get in close where the F-22 might become like the F-4 in vietnam.
Now how on earth did we turn the F-22 into the F-4 mig, I mean really, the only true fifth gen in the world into the lead sled, really what have you been puffin on down in Mehico?


But let us point the F-22 has post stall capability, F-35 has not.
I think I pointed that out to you my boy!
Now with or without post stall, a fighter needs a wingman, when you have 2 versus one the odds are against the one flying alone, but dismissing post stall is just a trick of you, it will depend in the way the pilot flies and the tactics he uses plus it also depends in the ability of the rival
Now mig we"re not that tricky, Col Moga stated "Its NOT tactically relevant". but then you know more than the top dog himself don't you?

F-22 outnumbered can down 4 enemy jets without loses, but remember here the enemies are F-15 type jets, which is an equivalent of J-11.

In the original case, J-10 is more capable than J-11Bs according to Chinese reports, if you would change the Su-35 versus J-10 the difference will be Thrust vectoring, change that to F-22 versus J-10 and the J-10 won`t even see the F-22 even if the F-22 is outumbered.

will post stall play a part yes it will, will thrust vectoring play a part yes it will, will HMS play a part, yes it will, and today Su-35 has HMS, thrust vectoring and Supercruise .


Now i will tell you why F-22 does hooks and supercobra.

According to those who say post stall makes you predictable is because if you have 1 versus 2 post stall is predictable since it will slow you down.

to start cobra can be used as a way to slow down and force a enemy overshoot F-22 and over pass F-22, but if there is a second fighter you say F-22 slows down so much the second jet can kill it.


if that would be the case, then F-22 should be killed more often by F-15s since F-15s outnumber F-22s,

"not necessarily Maverik, you've seen top gun, one too many times

 

[MiG-29]

[
"not necessarily Maverik, you've seen top gun, one too many times

interesting you say that, since is the USAF who claim 2 F-22 take on 8 F-15s and down all without loses, and interesting since F-15s are mocking Su-27/J-11s hah! and topgun is an american movie, in movies like mirrow wars or blackshark, the Russians are the good guys

[video=youtube;fEVfnB3OOGM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEVfnB3OOGM&feature=related[/video]

[video=youtube;9FDXeX5zgUw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FDXeX5zgUw&feature=BFa&list=HL1338358838[/video]

by the way i recomend you the movies

Hopefully, you will never find yourself in air-to-air combat with a Lockheed Martin F-22, particularly if you happen to be flying any other fighter besides an F-22. The Raptor still boasts a 30:1 kill ratio in mock dogfights (the only kind of dogfight, alas, the F-22 has ever known).

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

 

[Air Force Brat]

interesting you say that, since is the USAF who claim 2 F-22 take on 8 F-15s and down all without loses, and interesting since F-15s are mocking Su-27/J-11s hah! and topgun is an american movie, in movies like mirrow wars or blackshark, the Russians are the good guys



by the way i recomend you the movies

Hopefully, you will never find yourself in air-to-air combat with a Lockheed Martin F-22, particularly if you happen to be flying any other fighter besides an F-22. The Raptor still boasts a 30:1 kill ratio in mock dogfights (the only kind of dogfight, alas, the F-22 has ever known).

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Hey I'm Raptor man 01, we agree on that Jr. Flateric had some russian docs he would send me, but I can't translate them, I told him you might, so if you here from him, thats why. I would like to see more real info on the T-50. I don't think the Raptor would be outclassed by any of these birds, and yes the Su-35 might give it a run for its money, but I'm not completely sold on that. I hope the F-22 never has to be used for its intended purpose and while I might have a curiosity about how it would do, the implications of having another conflaguration somewhere is sad. I can't wait for the first mock fights between the F-35 and the Raptor, it will be a turkey shoot.LOL

 

[kwaigonegin]

Hey I'm Raptor man 01, we agree on that Jr. Flateric had some russian docs he would send me, but I can't translate them, I told him you might, so if you here from him, thats why. I would like to see more real info on the T-50. I don't think the Raptor would be outclassed by any of these birds, and yes the Su-35 might give it a run for its money, but I'm not completely sold on that. I hope the F-22 never has to be used for its intended purpose and while I might have a curiosity about how it would do, the implications of having another conflaguration somewhere is sad. I can't wait for the first mock fights between the F-35 and the Raptor, it will be a turkey shoot.LOL

turkey shoot it is. Assuming both are driven by skilled pilots the Lighting II will have close to ZERO chance against the Raptor if both are already in the air or the Raptor already flying CAP. Let's not forget AIM-9x as well. The F-22 can carry the X-ray on it's side bay (due to rails) but the F-35 CANNOT carry AIM-9X internally. It would have to carry it on the wings which would severely negate it's stealth characteristics. Even in full stealth mode, the opposing Raptor still has significant advantage due to it's superior kinematics.. w/o it the F-35 is just committing suicide. I believe the AIM-9X is also capable of LOAL (not 100%) but if it does that's another significant advantage it as over the F35.
F-35 has a slight advantage in some detection capability due to IRST which the F-22 does not have however IRST's detection range is much shorter than the detection capabilities of say the APG-77v1. It's possible the F-22 can detect the F-35 in full stealth mode even out to 50 or 60 miles which is equivalent to the IRST in optimum weather condition. The only unknown here is the F-35's EW/avionics suite and it's true capabilities in terms of active/passive jamming etc.. either way the advantage is Raptor because it will be able to launch it's missiles first be it BVR or WVR.

 

[Lion]

I believe sooner or later, J-11b will be introduced with TVC. It's the logical next step but lack of the technology and with J-10 around. It became non urgent issue.

Advance canard will still prove superior than traditional TVC 4th gen fighter.
Think abt it. Using canard flap to control turn is much much better than TVC. Despite many disadvantage of canard for a plane like increase RCS, reduce pilot visual and added weight. So many countries still opt for this option for their next gen fighter.

Canard design do not reduce yr thrust when making tight turn due to the continuous steady direction of the thrust while TVC to divert yr thrust to achieve the acute change of flow. You bleed speed and lost momenton.

 

[MiG-29]

I believe sooner or later, J-11b will be introduced with TVC. It's the logical next step but lack of the technology and with J-10 around. It became non urgent issue.

Advance canard will still prove superior than traditional TVC 4th gen fighter.
Think abt it. Using canard flap to control turn is much much better than TVC. Despite many disadvantage of canard for a plane like increase RCS, reduce pilot visual and added weight. So many countries still opt for this option for their next gen fighter.

Canard design do not reduce yr thrust when making tight turn due to the continuous steady direction of the thrust while TVC to divert yr thrust to achieve the acute change of flow. You bleed speed and lost momenton.

Aircraft turn not because they have canards or not, but because the lift they generate and this will be facilitated by longitudinal stability and lateral stability.

What this does mean?

Simple, all aircraft have a turn limit based upon the lift they generate, the wing loading is a design parameter but also the AoA they can achieve.


J-10 as Eurofighter or Rafale have limits and the point here is this, Thrust vectoring control nozzles also have limits.

A thing you might be surprise to know is the F-15 has better wing loading than Su-27/J-11 and the canard is no guarantee you will beat a fighter with tailplanes.

Why the Su-27 is better than F-15 is because the LEX adds that extra lift it needs, however the F-15 is not a slouch, it has some speeds and altitudes it can out turn a Su-27 or MiG-29 and this is because it has very low wing loading and high thrust despite it has a very simple wing


Su-27/J-11 has a very high wing loading compared to J-10, due to aerodynamics of the wing design delta wings have their higher lift generation at high AoA but their total lift is lower than lower swept wings of same wing area therefore designers add a canard.

On wing with LEX, you have a lower swept wing with high lift potential but this type of wing generates its max lift at lower AoA, so they add a LEX to increase the AoA of the wing.

none is better, its the max lift they generate, if J-10 has a lower wing loading, its potential agility is higher.

It has nothing to do with canards.
The canard is there just to increase the AoA of the wing that is it.

You can have a design with canards that is inferior to one without it and viceversa, in fact Eurofighter has inferior agility than F-22 or Viggen is inferior to F-15 remember both design have positive stability, F-15 is stable as Viggen.


J-10 shows superior agility over the J-11 just because it has lower wing loading.

If you compare the wing loading of Eurofighter, Rafale or Gripen you will find all these jets have very low wing loadings, the canard has nothing to do with their agility as you suppose, the canard definitively increases the AoA but the LEX on Su-27 does the same to the flanker`s wing, in fact the J-11`s LEX is sharper thus it generates more powerful vortices.

The J-10 however by having lower wing loading generates proportionally better lift, thus it outturns the Flanker.

TVC nozzles also have limits, they won`t increase turn beyond a fraction of the max turn rate, usually is 10%-15%, same is the roll rate, the F-22 is not that different to F-15 without TVC nozzles, add TVC nozzles and it becomes really agile.

 

[SinoSoldier]

Pardon my stupidity, but what is the number of J-11B currently in service?

 

[Totoro]

should be around 140 aircraft now, serving in 6 different regiments.

 

[Quickie]

should be around 140 aircraft now, serving in 6 different regiments.

That comes out to about 300 WS-10A which is a big enough number. Of course there're always those who still believe China is having production problem with these engines.

 

[hmmwv]

They still have production capacity problem with Taihangs that's why the recent AL31F order, otherwise we'll be seeing serial production J10s with Taihangs by now. Liming simply cannot make enough engines for all the jets SAC and CAC are pumping out.