China Flanker Thread II

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Munir

Banned Idiot
The RCS can be reduced without making major redesigns. I agree that Su27/J11 is not that stealthy from side or back but I heard that the frontal RCS was significantly reduced. The overal design is surely not altered and why risking in the beginning an expensive plane if you have a tested design to copy?

Composites are not stealthier then metal. It depends on many other factors.

I agree with Crobato about canards on MKI. They are fine but do you really need a big heavy plane doing things that can shut down kinetic energy like crazy? You just do not want to end up gasping for speed while your being atacked! And surely the advantage is less due to long range BVR and extremely agility of misiles. Just the fact that newer Flankers lost canards shows that they were not that much adding... Otherwise the F22 would have them!
 
crobato

crobato

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Interesting video. An F-15 pilot talks about the Su-30MKI in Red Flag.

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It does not appear the youtube video on the presentation is going to last since the others have been taken down.

Aviationweek however, seems to have caught on with the story.

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I agree with Crobato about canards on MKI. They are fine but do you really need a big heavy plane doing things that can shut down kinetic energy like crazy? You just do not want to end up gasping for speed while your being atacked! And surely the advantage is less due to long range BVR and extremely agility of misiles. Just the fact that newer Flankers lost canards shows that they were not that much adding... Otherwise the F22 would have them!
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If you read the article and looked at that video, note the obsession for low speed post stall maneuvers which apparently didn't do the less experienced MKI pilots any good. The way the TVC nozzle is positioned and used leads to massive drag...

"Against the much larger RCS Su-30MKI, the F-16s and F-15s won consistently during the first three days of air-to-air combat, he continues. However, that was the result of trying to immediately go into a post-stall, thrust-vectored turn when attacked. The turn then creates massive drag and the aircraft starts sinking and losing altitude. "It starts dropping so fast you don't have to go vertical [first]. The low-speed tail slide allowed the U.S. aircraft to dive from above and "get one chance to come down to shoot," the pilot says. "You go to guns and drill his brains out." The Su-30 is jamming your missiles so...you go to guns and drill his brains out."

The drag from the canards certainly are not helping either.

It should be noted that the first Cope where the Indians did much better, the Su-30s were -Ks, no canards, no TVC.

Note also the following issues: the AL-31F's vulnerability of FOD, that the engines have to be returned to Russia for major repairs and overhaul; and the still grudging respect to the MiG-21 Bison.

It all seems to further confirm what we all suspect the PLAAF has to do: go with its own indigenous engines, and to take reassess the use of TVC.
 
L

Londo Molari

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FriedRiceNSpice said:
The EW suite on the Su-30s are actually capable of jamming the AIM-9s!?!?!
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I don't remember hearing that in the video. He did say that after the Su-30MKI went into post-stall maneuvering, you could just "drill their brains out with the cannon".

I wonder how relavent all this maneuvering is with high off boresite IR missiles and AMRAAM's/ski's.
 
crobato

crobato

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He's saying the jamming, which is quite effective by the way, is making it difficult to lock on with the missiles. So when the MKI drops, the best thing to do is drop your nose, put the MKI in your gunsights and "drill".

Good thing to know there is still some purpose with the gun.


The stuff Prasun posted on his blog all seems very interesting though it brings the skeptic out of me and subject to wait and see. I think he did ask the Rossoboronexport officials over there, but then again, Ross has said things that didn't come through before.

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The most interesting exhibits—however—the indigenous J-10A medium multi-role combat aircraft now in series-product
ion at Chengdu Aircraft Corp’s (CAC) facilities in Chengdu; and scale-models displayed by Russia’s Rosoboronexport State Corp/Sukhoi Aircraft Corp of the Su-35MKK and Su-33MKK heavy multi-role combat aircraft that are due to be acquired by the PLA Air Force and the PLA Navy in the near future. Present plans of the PLA Air Force call for the acquisition of 38 Su-35MKKs whose primary armaments package will include Novator’s KS-172 long-range air combat missile as well as the Yakhont multi-role supersonic cruise missile from NPO Mashinostroineyie. Interestingly, the Yakhonts will be upgraded will an all-digital navigation-and-guidance system developed by Russia’s JSC Konstern Avionika. Therefore, it is now a distinct possibility that the Yakhont-equipped Su-35MKKs will become operational much earlier than the BrahMos-equipped Su-30MKI. The Yakhonts will also be on board the Su-33MKKs, eight of which are on the verge of being ordered by the PLA Navy. These aircraft will also be armed with the 220km-range C-705 subsonic anti-ship cruise missile, which was unveiled by CPMIEC at Airshow China 2008 and which bears a close resemblance to the Novator-built 3M14E Club. The Su-33MKKs will be based at a newly upgraded air base in Inner Mongolia, where a land-based ski-ramp was recently commissioned by the PLA Navy for imparting flying training to the Su-33MKK aircrew.
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He probably means 3M-54E1 Klub as the 3M14E I think is a Subroc. However the 3M-54E1 resembles the Tomahawk, and any resemblance to the Klub is coincidental due to the C-705's resemblance to the Tomahawk, due to its YJ-62/C-602 parentage. The C-705 is essentially a smaller version of the C-602 and does not appear to be for domestic consumption, otherwise the YJ designation would be used instead.

We have seen too many speculations about China buying this and that from the Russians but which never came through. So I have my serious doubts about the Su-35MKK and the KS-172 and put it on the "I believe it when I see it" category. On the other hand, the Su-33MKK is probably something that has a higher probability of occurring.
 
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challenge

Banned Idiot
according to the latest issue of kanwa, J-11B been upgraded to J-11CS. the center pieces is lighter radar,and her ability fire PL-12 ,able to intercept two target simultaneosly.
 
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challenge

Banned Idiot
从各方面的消息称中国新歼-11B改进型歼-11CS已研发成功，其性能参数比苏35更先进世界　　海外媒体关于中国空军的新型战机又传出消息，称中国开始生产歼11B战斗机。世界论

　　日前加拿大《防务评论》称，中国即将开始批量生产型号为歼-11B的新型战斗机。报道称，这种俄制苏-27SK战斗机的改良型号已换装中国国产的雷达，并已成功进行PL-12空空导弹同时攻击两个目标的试验。现在已有两架歼-11B成功试飞。世界论坛网

　　称根据俄罗斯消息来源，自2006年11月以来，中国向俄罗斯订购了若干批OLS-31E光电（O/E ）探测系统零配件。主编平可夫认为，中国大批进口OLS-31E散件，说明中国已开始自行组装OLS-31E，用于中国即将进行的歼-11B战斗机生产。世界论坛网

　　还称俄罗斯NIIP雷达设计局总设计师尤里最新研发的无源相控雷达将应用在苏35战机世界论坛网




最近国外网站上流传的新歼-11B。新型歼-11CS结构大体一样世界论坛网



　　贝利（YuriBely）透露，中国对苏-35战斗机使用的IRBIS无源相控阵雷达表示浓厚的兴趣。据称IRBIS雷达对三平方米空中目标的探测距离达到四百公里。世界论坛网 　　但平可夫称俄方不会轻易向中国输出雷达技术。显然歼11B已经威胁到了苏27家族的出口市场。目前正在设计双座型的歼-11BS多用途战斗机将取代苏-30MKK多用途战斗机。在机动性、航程、载弹量等领域，歼-11B对日本及周边都够成极大的威慑。世界论坛网 从各方面的消息称中国新歼-11B改进型歼-11CS已研发成功，其性能参数比苏35更先进，这也是中国迟迟不愿参与俄罗斯第五代战机研发之一。新歼 -11B采用的是更为先进的导航和火控系统。它与新型苏27MK的机体要略大。在某些地方也更优越于苏-35 有消息称中国歼11-B是苏35的翻版。那歼-11CS 其性能将全面超越苏35，而歼11-CS 与中国研发的歼14有大大的不同。不论是在机体结构还是其它方面。新歼-11CS将全面应用中国所掌握的先进技术结合国外引进的先进技术。超能激光技术也将应用在歼-11CS上，这将突破传统的战机结构设想。
 
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