China Expatriate Experience

Heliox said:

No issues. That's from about a baker's dozen of factories. There are occasional slips but customer service and follow up has always been quick and very ready to accept responsibility.

That said, most factories that I've worked with in China have mainly been by personal recommendations from existing partners. While I've heard my fair share of "horror stories" re: China Factories, I've managed to steer clear of them by sticking to recommendations from trusted partners.

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I suppose those factories were not making consumer goods then, the types sold on Aliexpress and Amazon.

Heliox said:

First bit of their blog post says they've already paid for a US$100k order and are flying over to spot check on the production. Not quite some random foreigner.

I've toured many factory facilities all over the world (incl. China), both as an existing customer as well as a potential customer and it's always with production ongoing. Not sure why I, as a customer, would want to sight/inspect a factory that is silent and shut down.

Also, while I haven't been gifted a short holiday while waiting on processes, the various bosses have certainly been very creative with their largesse to impress upon me that I am a "valued" customer. The more memorable ones include
- calling a friend who owns a go-kart track to open after hours (like 11pm+) to let our party have a private race with their sales staff.
- hooking me up with a close friend who happens to be a curator at the Beijing National Museum for a private behind the scenes tour of the museum.
- whilst we were in Shanghai, arranging for my wife who likes Chinese tea to visit his relatives in Hangzhou for a short stay in an actual tea farming village.

Doing biz in China is still very much about guanxi and building it.

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a potential customer asked to observe a testing process for a component. we refused them and told them that the exact testing process is part of our IP. customers are given a highly guided tour that does not include allowing them to view any potentially sensitive processes.

our company also makes sure that we understand that those actions you mentioned may constitute bribery.

FairAndUnbiased said:

a potential customer asked to observe a testing process for a component. we refused them and told them that the exact testing process is part of our IP. customers are given a highly guided tour that does not include allowing them to view any potentially sensitive processes.

our company also makes sure that we understand that those actions you mentioned may constitute bribery.

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Sure, I don't doubt that certain factories/industries will have off-limits areas and that is perfectly understandable too.

Let's just say that your original assertion "I can't believe factory owners allow random foreigners to tour the facility while production is ongoing" doesn't apply in general?

Let's not pretend that bribery in some form does not exist anywhere? I won't even conjecture to assume they aren't aware either (notice how it's carefully always through some 3rd party?). Things are a lot more subtle these days compared to the outright gifts of yesteryears.

broadsword said:

I suppose those factories were not making consumer goods then, the types sold on Aliexpress and Amazon.

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I only know of consumer goods. Can't speak for other stuff.

Heliox said:

Sure, I don't doubt that certain factories/industries will have off-limits areas and that is perfectly understandable too.

Let's just say that your original assertion "I can't believe factory owners allow random foreigners to tour the facility while production is ongoing" doesn't apply in general?

Let's not pretend that bribery in some form does not exist anywhere? I won't even conjecture to assume they aren't aware either (notice how it's carefully always through some 3rd party?). Things are a lot more subtle these days compared to the outright gifts of yesteryears.

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when I get the chance to visit supplier sites, and there aren't many of them, IDK if it's because my company is shit or I'm too low on the totem pole, but nobody picks me up, nobody pays for my hotel, etc. I'm expected to find my way by myself. My employer gives me a list of hotels they have a discount with which is what they'll reimburse me for, and I get a reimbursement for Lyft.

On site I get a brief, highly scripted tour that I know showed me little of importance. Then I get a lunch, maybe a dinner at a restaurant. I still go whenever I have the chance because it gets me out of real work for 1-2 days but it's fucking wild to me that people take 15 day business trips with a free vacation thrown in. And I don't think it's because my employer doesn't place big enough orders either.

Patchwork_Chimera said:

The fact that you're reading about it (and by extension, the factory) almost certainly had something to do with it. I imagine factory owners would be more willing to wine and dine, and to really jazz themselves up for folks who have a large outreach like these individuals seem to.

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I guess it's the difference between capitalists talking to capitalists in their case (even between small time capitalists) and my situation of a prole working at a multinational talking to other proles at multinationals. Account managers, site managers, engineers, etc. no matter how well paid, are still just proles and bound by corporate policy after all. None of it is our money. I am not the customer, I'm just a representative of my employer, the real customer. Damn. Such is capitalism.

Patchwork_Chimera said:

I'm impartial to either, but... aren't you saying this while describing something that took place within, y'know, the People's Republic of China? It just seems strange to attribute distaste of this sort of thing to capitalism when it's taking place within an ostensibly socialist society is all, so I'm curious where you're coming from (I am not well versed in politics, so apologies if I sound uninformed - it's because I am)

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no what I mean is, based on a more careful reading, I realize that the visitor is an owner of an enterprise, not just a representative of his employer. He is visiting the owner of the factory directly. And this seems to me like the critical difference, where when I travel, I travel as a representative of my employer, visiting other workers, who are the representatives of their employers. I am not a owner nor are the people I talk to the owners. The people I visit have a set budget and I have corporate regulations to follow.

Patchwork_Chimera said:

Oh, well yes I agree with you. I guess I just fail to see how there is A - something wrong with this (I mean, I assume you were being paid to do that stuff lol) or B - how capitalism is involved in making this situation negative compared to otherwise (if your point was that in the PRC, being socialist(?), things are better - are you glossing over the workers in the back or am I just missing something?)

Again, I'm truly neutral on this one (I detest all "ism"s equally. if it works it works, if it doesn't it doesn't. no need to abstract beyond that imo), so I'm just interested in where you're coming from is all, since you seem to have more knowledge on this stuff that I might be missing an important element of.

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IDK, it was just a gut feeling of comparing how they were treated vs how I experienced (on both sides) for the same activity of supplier visits. I didn't even think I was treated particularly poorly, but the huge contrast of, most neutrally described, 'hospitality', really shocked me.

Patchwork_Chimera said:

Well, I daresay that the camera and wide audience probably helped "inspire" the factory owner to be as accommodating as could be, since it's basically free advertising. As a result, I guess I'd just say I'm dubious that this is business-as-usual; and that different factories in different parts of the world, producing different product, with different management and different owners have different incentives to act more or less hospitable, and abide by different standards of what's considered professional vs unprofessional.

I suppose if that gut feeling was all there was too it, and that the capitalism comment was just a reaction, then I'm looking too far into what you meant.

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yeah I wasn't looking to write a thesis on the behavioral constraints of proletariat vs bourgeoisie. but there is definitely a difference. one who owns the capital and labor of others will behave differently than one who sells labor for a wage, even for a high wage.

mossen said:

I don't take FairandUnbiased seriously anymore, he's just spouting off on things he doesn't know about. Of course you're correct that customers should be able to inspect the factories making their products.

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you can believe whatever you want. I just offer a point of view from my personal experience. The neutral audience can determine who is providing useful information. I never claimed to be a SME on everything.

FairAndUnbiased said:

when I get the chance to visit supplier sites, and there aren't many of them, IDK if it's because my company is shit or I'm too low on the totem pole, but nobody picks me up, nobody pays for my hotel, etc. I'm expected to find my way by myself. My employer gives me a list of hotels they have a discount with which is what they'll reimburse me for, and I get a reimbursement for Lyft.

On site I get a brief, highly scripted tour that I know showed me little of importance. Then I get a lunch, maybe a dinner at a restaurant. I still go whenever I have the chance because it gets me out of real work for 1-2 days but it's fucking wild to me that people take 15 day business trips with a free vacation thrown in. And I don't think it's because my employer doesn't place big enough orders either.

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This is it in a nutshell really.

There's a difference if you're a simply a process audit guy and if you're the owner/C-suite/Buyer in charge of pulling the trigger on contracts with lots of zeros.

There's a difference if your business with them is 0.1% of their turnover or 10% of their turnover. Even then, there's a difference if your business is in a strategic market for them or not.

The difference shows in whether they meet & greet you, whether they take care of your F&B, how they wine and dine you, who you eventually get to sit and meet with, etc. Even in a trade show, it's the difference between whether you get a table in the main area or a private meeting room away from all the distractions on the floor.

This difference pretty much transcends all markets and cultures.

Oh, btw, the guys on the sales side that takes care customer accounts? They very typically do 10-15 day trips to meet with their customers. Not just one customer of course but a string of them within a logical geographic region. Not uncommon for them to shoehorn their own personal itinerary into the overall trip. A trip to the tailor here, a bit of shopping there, some sightseeing in between ... I have a couple of them who always show up when the F1 GP is in town.

That's a whole different kind of "corruption" going on that side as well.