China depends less on Russian Technology

PrOeLiTeZ

Junior Member
Registered Member
Mate MBT for China were comparable during the late 96, article is very very biased in the first place, and this expert doesnt sound much of an expert. Firstly its decade old information, and its facts are way off, China never approached for T-90 they approached for T-80 for examination to refine and improve their own.

Deal didnt go through but PLA managed to lay hands on some T-72. IFV and APC they seem to be influenced by their Russian counterparts but are actually domestic and are quite capable and superior to their neighbours.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Can anyone out there bring me up to date in what China's position is with the Su30Mk1, and what the final feeling was with Chinese intention with its 5th gen aircraft, in that was it ever a possibility to have done a joint design with the Russians,I know it was discussed sometime ago
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
The International Herald Tribune 2nd March
In an article written By David Lague examine the Russian arms Trade, and have noted the fall off, due to the same reasons discussed here, also citing some experts beliefs that after 3 decades of trying and making admirable strides , the Chinese have failed to master true leading edge technology
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
1. China is not acquiring any more Su-30MK.

2. China has already refused participation in the PAK-FA project.

3. I don't know what you mean by "leading edge" technology since China has already demonstrated leading edge technology like that ASAT trial.
 

Troika

Junior Member
The International Herald Tribune 2nd March
In an article written By David Lague examine the Russian arms Trade, and have noted the fall off, due to the same reasons discussed here, also citing some experts beliefs that after 3 decades of trying and making admirable strides , the Chinese have failed to master true leading edge technology

Either you are not quoting fully, or the author is not knowing what he is talking about. The statement is ill-defined, simply because 'leading edge' is a moving target. It is more accurate to state that China has yet to catch up with the leading edge in most aspects.

...and if anybody actually find that surprising, that person is singularly ignorant of Chinese industrial history.

Compare some key dates - first indigenously designed vehicle, first material of thermal characteristics and tensile strength suitable for fan blades for turbofans, to have recent example, first gas turbine suitable for military vessel operation... and against them set similar dates of Western or Russian breakthrough of similar nature. Hell, compare the first mass-operational date. And a clear picture emerges.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
My apologies

I was simply puting my interpretation on what they mean't here is part of the passage, make of it what you will
After orders peaked at more than $2 billion a year early in this decade, Chinese arms deals with Russia shrank to almost nothing in 2006, and no major new contracts are in the pipeline, according to Russian, Chinese and U.S. defense experts.

"We are in a strategic pause," said Ruslan Pukhov, an expert on the Russian military and director of the Center for the Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, a Moscow-based research institute specializing in the arms trade. "The Chinese and Russians are like long-term lovers who are thinking, 'Shall we continue to share this bed?' "A halt or slowdown in Russian arms deliveries could hamper the Chinese drive to modernize its military. It would also increase pressure on the Chinese arms industry to innovate. Some Western and Russian military experts say they believe that despite decades of intensive effort, Chinese arms makers are still struggling to master the advanced engineering skills needed to build important hardware.

In China, there is confidence that these problems will be solved. "The Russians can maintain their lead for a certain period, but eventually we will catch up," said Shen Dingli, an international affairs analyst at Fudan University in Shanghai. "China will be a formidable technological competitor to anybody."......................

Sergei Chemzov, a senior government official responsible for arms sales, said Russia exported weapons worth $7 billion in 2007, and this was expected to increase to $7.5 billion in 2008, the state-run RIA Novosti news agency reported in December.

To add to Beijing's frustration, some of the Russian transfers to India include weapons and technology that Moscow refuses to supply to China. Moscow and New Delhi agreed to begin the joint development of a new, so-called fifth-generation fighter, the Russian government announced in October.

This aircraft would be a potential rival in performance to the U.S. F-22 Raptor, defense analysts say.

India also agreed last year to buy another 40 Su-30MKI fighters from Russia for $1.5 billion in addition to an earlier order for 140 of these aircraft. Some military experts say this versatile, twin-engined jet is probably the best fighter and strike aircraft in the world. But Russia has not offered it to China. And Moscow is offering to sell India its latest fighter, the MiG-35.

In nuclear submarine technology, Russia has also been more generous with India than with China, naval experts say.

Still, with the Western arms embargo on China still in place, most analysts expect that Moscow and Beijing will eventually negotiate compromises that clear the way for future contracts.

"Russia still provides what the U.S. and the EU will not supply," said Muraviev.

Heres the site if you wanted to read the whole article, but personally I dont think its telling us what the posters on this thread have already stated, however I was a little confused over the Su 30MK1 issue.I thought China had a number of these planes so a little confused on what they were talking about

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Troika

Junior Member
My apologies

I was simply puting my interpretation on what they mean't here is part of the passage, make of it what you will
After orders peaked at more than $2 billion a year early in this decade, Chinese arms deals with Russia shrank to almost nothing in 2006, and no major new contracts are in the pipeline, according to Russian, Chinese and U.S. defense experts.

"We are in a strategic pause," said Ruslan Pukhov, an expert on the Russian military and director of the Center for the Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, a Moscow-based research institute specializing in the arms trade. "The Chinese and Russians are like long-term lovers who are thinking, 'Shall we continue to share this bed?' "A halt or slowdown in Russian arms deliveries could hamper the Chinese drive to modernize its military. It would also increase pressure on the Chinese arms industry to innovate. Some Western and Russian military experts say they believe that despite decades of intensive effort, Chinese arms makers are still struggling to master the advanced engineering skills needed to build important hardware.

In China, there is confidence that these problems will be solved. "The Russians can maintain their lead for a certain period, but eventually we will catch up," said Shen Dingli, an international affairs analyst at Fudan University in Shanghai. "China will be a formidable technological competitor to anybody."......................

Sergei Chemzov, a senior government official responsible for arms sales, said Russia exported weapons worth $7 billion in 2007, and this was expected to increase to $7.5 billion in 2008, the state-run RIA Novosti news agency reported in December.

To add to Beijing's frustration, some of the Russian transfers to India include weapons and technology that Moscow refuses to supply to China. Moscow and New Delhi agreed to begin the joint development of a new, so-called fifth-generation fighter, the Russian government announced in October.

This aircraft would be a potential rival in performance to the U.S. F-22 Raptor, defense analysts say.

India also agreed last year to buy another 40 Su-30MKI fighters from Russia for $1.5 billion in addition to an earlier order for 140 of these aircraft. Some military experts say this versatile, twin-engined jet is probably the best fighter and strike aircraft in the world. But Russia has not offered it to China. And Moscow is offering to sell India its latest fighter, the MiG-35.

In nuclear submarine technology, Russia has also been more generous with India than with China, naval experts say.

Still, with the Western arms embargo on China still in place, most analysts expect that Moscow and Beijing will eventually negotiate compromises that clear the way for future contracts.

"Russia still provides what the U.S. and the EU will not supply," said Muraviev.

Heres the site if you wanted to read the whole article, but personally I dont think its telling us what the posters on this thread have already stated, however I was a little confused over the Su 30MK1 issue.I thought China had a number of these planes so a little confused on what they were talking about

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


It's not a problem...

And I think I spot your problem is. You missed one important detail... MKI. Not MK1(MKK, or Многофунктзионний Коммерческий Китайски actually, give it its full name, the 1 is to distinguish it from MKK2s and the proposed MKK3).

One's MKI (I for India), the other is MK1, a shorthand for MKK, K for Kitay, or China.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
China had about 100 Su-30MKK and MK2 fighters. The last delivery was of 2004.

Also China never approached Rubin or any of the Russian shipyards for anything with submarine or nuclear submarine technology. China only bought about a dozen Kilos, but apparently never made any serious attempt to purchase or lease Russian nuclear submarines or request technological assistance from Rubin and other design bureaus.

Russia did offer the Su-35 to China, which is about as advanced or more so than the Su-30MKI, but China was not interested.

You should understand that China looks at other concerns, such as delivery, reliability, product after sales support and things like that---anything that any customer would do. And of course, a good price. But the Russians have not been good in delivery, quality and support issues, and their prices are going up. To understand this, note the frustration the Indians are now dealing with the Russians, prices for Su-30MKI has to be renegotiated, so is the price for the new carriers, missiles like the Klubs are showing defects, and Russia is itself now reluctant to share copyright material dealing with the T-90 tank and the Brahmos missiles. The Indians are indeed getting ticked off and now looking more and more at non Russian alternatives.

So the Chinese spared themselves the trouble. Besides the Russians fumbled big on the major IL-76 deal. You have to understand that a big part of the problem is the Russians themselves.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
They'll work on improving the J-10 and J-11B fighters. They are more conservative in their design approach, which means quicker to mature and less issues with reliability. The Russians have more "advanced" material, but one reason why they want to market themselves so much is because they still need funds to develop and test the project. The problem I see with these projects is that, being short in funds and long in ideas, the implementations tend to be half baked, and that's going to result in issues in reliability and support. I am going to trust that the PLA is going to have the time and the resources to test, refine and mature their products more. So the question is, you want a product that is more advanced but half baked, or a product that is less advanced but fully baked.
 
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