China demographics thread.

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
None of these "external conquests" ever lasted that long, or ended up changing China.

Usually what happened is that some statelet outside "China" swooped in and took some land after the Empire became a cesspit of corruption, thus shocking the Empire into mobilizing and steamrolling the offending statelet. Then, many of the native "barbarians" were exiled into random areas while their homeland was integrated through settling initiatives.

That's how "Chinese culture" was so resilient, because China might occasionally lose battles, but it almost never lost wars. At the end of the day, the enemies were under unconditional surrender and had no choice but to assume Chinese identities. The Mongols had the greatest success in battle for awhile, but look at a modern map of China and you can see who ultimately came out on top.

So I don't subscribe to the idea that Chinese culture can't assimilate immigrants. It would obviously need controls so it doesn't get swarmed by economic migrants, but Chinese identity is more than ethnic ties. It is like a common dream rooted in history.

Opening the gates more is a good idea, starting with North East Asia and Russia.
 
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Botnet

Junior Member
Registered Member
I think that fatalism and defeatism is not the answer here. If you look at Japan, the amount of GDP they spend on child rearing support is only half of Sweden, where the TFR for native born women was 1.47, compared to 1.26 for Japanese women. So such support does have an impact at the margins, which makes a big difference.
The major European countries in general have had good TFR, with France only dipping below the replacement rate in the beginning of this century. A good social safety net allows for that. Realistically, these countries are good places to live in, so people are able to afford to have multiple children. The family benefits are just the cherry on the top, and the contribution is relatively minor. And China wouldn't be able to afford the family benefits offered in Sweden or Japan anyways.
But the larger point is that if society really wanted more children, it is in no way impossible. But I do agree that the major battle is in the cultural sphere and not *just* in terms of money.
Yep, but I do think the government should also focus on cost of living as well as stimulus in order to make it affordable to raise multiple children.
 
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KYli

Brigadier
Both downfall of Tang and Han/Jin dynasty and the subsequent chaos have left many Chinese in a bad taste of welcoming new immigrants in massive number. Yuan and Qing dynasties ruled by foreign invaders have also caused the Chinese culture to turn much more inward.

The downfall of Qing dynasty and of the rise Western powers and subsequent adoption of Western ideologies have changed China. However, CPC was only successful in implementing socialist revolution in many minorities area at the beginning. Initially, many serfs and lower class minorities support CPC but religious extremists have always lurking in the shadow. That's why the Chinese government was forced to change tactics and make minorities to learn Mandarin so that these minorities could find jobs and not behold of religion controls.

Mass immigrants would not be accepted by mainland Chinese, at least for this generation. Most mainland Chinese felt that they have made the sacrifice of building up the country and having only one child. They won't accept that the immigrants would enjoy the benefits for all of these fruits that they and their parents sacrificed so much to achieve.
 

Eventine

Junior Member
Registered Member
None of these "external conquests" ever lasted that long, or ended up changing China.

Usually what happened is that some statelet outside "China" swooped in and took some land after the Empire became a cesspit of corruption, thus shocking the Empire into mobilizing and steamrolling the offending statelet. Then, many of the native "barbarians" were exiled into random areas while their homeland was integrated through settling initiatives.

That's how "Chinese culture" was so resilient, because China might occasionally lose battles, but it almost never lost wars. At the end of the day, the enemies were under unconditional surrender and had no choice but to assume Chinese identities. The Mongols had the greatest success in battle for awhile, but look at a modern map of China and you can see who ultimately came out on top.

So I don't subscribe to the idea that Chinese culture can't assimilate immigrants. It would obviously need controls so it doesn't get swarmed by economic migrants, but Chinese identity is more than ethnic ties. It is like a common dream rooted in history.

Opening the gates more is a good idea, starting with North East Asia and Russia.
I think you'll be hard pressed to find a historian who would support that the Five Barbarians did not change China. The Northern Dynasties that followed were very much "barbarian" until Xiaowen's Sinicization campaign; but then Yuwen Tai rolled those back and the results were still present during the Sui-Tang Dynasties, which had half their foot in the "barbarian" world because of the cultural legacy of the immigrants.

The heritage of the Han was not completely lost, but nobody serious about history would pretend that they were completely preserved, either. Just look at the most popular religions in China today. Is it Daoism or Buddhism? Guess which was a "barbarian" influence? Even the language had a huge change over time due to invaders' influence. Mandarin's dominance is widely agreed to be a product of the Khitan-Jurchen-Mongol-Manchu complex. The earlier Sinitic languages were more similar to the southern dialects, which are in decline or dying today.

Mass immigration, like conquest, brings change. There is no question about that.
 
I think you'll be hard pressed to find a historian who would support that the Five Barbarians did not change China. The Northern Dynasties that followed were very much "barbarian" until Xiaowen's Sinicization campaign; but then Yuwen Tai rolled those back and the results were still present during the Sui-Tang Dynasties, which had half their foot in the "barbarian" world because of the cultural legacy of the immigrants.

The heritage of the Han was not completely lost, but nobody serious about history would pretend that they were completely preserved, either. Just look at the most popular religions in China today. Is it Daoism or Buddhism? Guess which was a "barbarian" influence? Even the language had a huge change over time due to invaders' influence. Mandarin's dominance is widely agreed to be a product of the Khitan-Jurchen-Mongol-Manchu complex. The earlier Sinitic languages were more similar to the southern dialects, which are in decline or dying today.

Mass immigration, like conquest, brings change. There is no question about that.

Original Han culture is from 2000 years ago. Of course Han culture would be drastically different today than it was 2000 years ago. The influence of the northern nomadic cultures on Han culture is insignificant compared to cultural exchanges through peaceful means such as trade. Buddhism, for example, came to China through peaceful means. Even if Han culture developed in a vacuum with no contacts with outside cultures, it would have vastly evolved and changes over 2000 years.

At the time period between the Jin and Tang dynasties, the concept of Han ethnic identity had not emerged yet. Prior to the Tang, the concept of non-Chinese cultural identities didn't really exist - there was only "civilized" peoples (Chinese civilization) and non-civilized peoples. Likewise, Chinese scholars never bothered to categorize different non-Chinese peoples by culture/ethnicity, and categorized groups of non-Chinese peoples together based on their geographic direction relative to China (ie Nanman, Dongyi, Beidi, Xirong). Once a group of people become "civilized," to Chinese standards, they were considered Chinese. China has been expanding and assimilating culturally distinct groups of people since the times of the Zhou dynasty. States of Qin/Chu/Wu/Yue are all examples of early Chinese expansionism and assimilation of outside cultures. Qin and Han continued this pattern of Chinese expansion and assimilation, until ultimately all agricultural land known to the Chinese came under Han control, from Vietnam to Korea. Ironically, the group that the early Chinese considered to be most different from themselves were the Southern barbarians, known as the Baiyue (Hundred Yue), which ended up being the group that was most fully assimilated by the Chinese. On the other hand, many Chinese sources at the time believed that many of the northern barbarians, were original descendants of earlier Chinese dynasties that had been overthrown (most likely untrue), due to their similarity in general appearance to the Chinese at the time. A Chinese peasant wouldn't really be able to tell the difference between a Xianbei in Chinese clothes from a Chinese hailing from a distant province. China at the time was a multi-ethnic state unified by a single cultural identity forged by the Qin and the Han dynasties. In fact, only after the Jin did large migrations of Northern Chinese move to Southern China, which over time would forge the Han ethnic identity. Even at the time of the Ming, many minority groups in the South such as the Zhuang, Liang, and Yao were considered indigenous peoples while the Jurchen were considered semi-Chinese.
 

Eventine

Junior Member
Registered Member
Original Han culture is from 2000 years ago. Of course Han culture would be drastically different today than it was 2000 years ago. The influence of the northern nomadic cultures on Han culture is insignificant compared to cultural exchanges through peaceful means such as trade. Buddhism, for example, came to China through peaceful means. Even if Han culture developed in a vacuum with no contacts with outside cultures, it would have vastly evolved and changes over 2000 years.

At the time period between the Jin and Tang dynasties, the concept of Han ethnic identity had not emerged yet. Prior to the Tang, the concept of non-Chinese cultural identities didn't really exist - there was only "civilized" peoples (Chinese civilization) and non-civilized peoples. Likewise, Chinese scholars never bothered to categorize different non-Chinese peoples by culture/ethnicity, and categorized groups of non-Chinese peoples together based on their geographic direction relative to China (ie Nanman, Dongyi, Beidi, Xirong). Once a group of people become "civilized," to Chinese standards, they were considered Chinese. China has been expanding and assimilating culturally distinct groups of people since the times of the Zhou dynasty. States of Qin/Chu/Wu/Yue are all examples of early Chinese expansionism and assimilation of outside cultures. Qin and Han continued this pattern of Chinese expansion and assimilation, until ultimately all agricultural land known to the Chinese came under Han control, from Vietnam to Korea. Ironically, the group that the early Chinese considered to be most different from themselves were the Southern barbarians, known as the Baiyue (Hundred Yue), which ended up being the group that was most fully assimilated by the Chinese. On the other hand, many Chinese sources at the time believed that many of the northern barbarians, were original descendants of earlier Chinese dynasties that had been overthrown (most likely untrue), due to their similarity in general appearance to the Chinese at the time. A Chinese peasant wouldn't really be able to tell the difference between a Xianbei in Chinese clothes from a Chinese hailing from a distant province. China at the time was a multi-ethnic state unified by a single cultural identity forged by the Qin and the Han dynasties. In fact, only after the Jin did large migrations of Northern Chinese move to Southern China, which over time would forge the Han ethnic identity. Even at the time of the Ming, many minority groups in the South such as the Zhuang, Liang, and Yao were considered indigenous peoples while the Jurchen were considered semi-Chinese.
Mass migration - ie northern Chinese to southern China - changed the culture and demographic composition of the region. I don't think this can be debated. The "southern barbarians" were assimilated into Chinese through this process. We all know this, and it's a great example of how much impact migration & conquest can have.

What you're trying to debate is that similar migrations from the steppe into northern China did not have the same effect, because it was the immigrants / invaders that were assimilated. This isn't entirely wrong, but it also isn't entirely right. Han ethnic identity was actually formed during the Northern Dynasties, in fact due to the practice of the immigrants / invaders of calling the conquered natives of northern China, "Han," by their destroyed dynasty.

So Han ethnicity began as a form of self-awareness in relation to alien peoples, who most definitely did not immediately assimilate. Indeed, this was not a great time for native Han; discrimination by the northerners is well-documented (look up Gao Huan telling the Xianbei nobles, "the Han are your slaves"), and for centuries the ethnic distinctions were maintained until finally, around the time of the Sui and Tang, it ceased being maintained.

But the culture and traditions of the north changed forever. Sui and Tang culture were not simply derivatives of Han culture; they were a mix of Han culture with northern culture, and this showed through in many aspects of life, from religion, to dress, to court rituals, to aesthetics, and to language. If you read history books on the period, you'll find records of how this change happened and how many influences northern peoples had on Chinese culture.

Simply blindly accepting narratives like "China has historically assimilated everybody" is naive. Yes, assimilation eventually happens, but it's a mutual process, not one-sided. It took three hundred years between the fall of the Jin in northern China and the rise of the Sui-Tang for Xianbei identity to stop mattering, and even then the new identity that replaced it wasn't the same as the old Huaxia of the Han. You can't expect China to import a hundred million Arabs or Africans or whatever, and for them to have no effect on Chinese identity long-term. That is just a fantasy.

The question you have to answer, as such, is whether you care more about the abstract political entity known as "China" or the demographic and cultural identity of "Chinese." Because the former can be expanded via mass immigration, but the latter can only be expanded via improving fertility.
 
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Mass migration - ie northern Chinese to southern China - changed the culture and demographic composition of the region. I don't think this can be debated. The "southern barbarians" were assimilated into Chinese through this process. We all know this, and it's a great example of how much impact migration & conquest can have.

What you're trying to debate is that similar migrations from the steppe into northern China did not have the same effect, because it was the immigrants / invaders that were assimilated. This isn't entirely wrong, but it also isn't entirely right. Han ethnic identity was actually formed during the Northern Dynasties, in fact due to the practice of the immigrants / invaders of calling the conquered natives of northern China, "Han," by their destroyed dynasty.

So Han ethnicity began as a form of self-awareness in relation to alien peoples, who most definitely did not immediately assimilate. Indeed, this was not a great time for native Han; discrimination by the northerners is well-documented (look up Gao Huan telling the Xianbei nobles, "the Han are your slaves"), and for centuries the ethnic distinctions were maintained until finally, around the time of the Sui and Tang, it ceased being maintained.

But the culture and traditions of the north changed forever. Sui and Tang culture were not simply derivatives of Han culture; they were a mix of Han culture with northern culture, and this showed through in many aspects of life, from religion, to dress, to court rituals, to aesthetics, and to language. If you read history books on the period, you'll find records of how this change happened and how many influences northern peoples had on Chinese culture.

Simply blindly accepting narratives like "China has historically assimilated everybody" is naive. Yes, assimilation eventually happens, but it's a mutual process, not one-sided. It took three hundred years between the fall of the Jin in northern China and the rise of the Sui-Tang for Xianbei identity to stop mattering, and even then the new identity that replaced it wasn't the same as the old Huaxia of the Han. You can't expect China to import a hundred million Arabs or Africans or whatever, and for them to have no effect on Chinese identity long-term. That is just a fantasy.

The question you have to answer, as such, is whether you care more about the abstract political entity known as "China" or the demographic and cultural identity of "Chinese." Because the former can be expanded via mass immigration, but the latter can only be expanded via improving fertility.

The entire history of the Chinese civilization is defined by the merging and exchange of cultures and customs of formerly distinct groups of peoples over time. Chinese culture is not and has never been viewed as the culture of one group of people. Since the time of the Zhou, nomadic peoples have influenced Chinese culture and customs. The Zhou dynasty itself was a group of people from the Northeast that were culturally and ethnically distinct from the Shang, and the culture that emerged afterwards was a hybrid of the Shang and Zhou cultures. In fact, during Warring States period, clothing styles were heavily influenced by the dress of the nomadic peoples, and traditionally "Chinese" forms of clothing were discarded. Many of the states during the Spring and Autumn and Warring States periods had consisted of different groups of people of different cultures and customs, all of which influenced "Chinese" culture. These states would also engage in exchange of culture and customs with one another, creating both a shared "Huaxia" culture while still maintaining distinct customs, languages, and local cultures. If the Chu-Han contention had gone the other way, it is very likely that China would have continued to develop as a collection of distinct states which would have over time diverged and formed separate cultural and ethnic identities. During Han dynasty, "Chinese" culture continued to be heavily influenced by the cultures it, "assimilated." Like you mentioned, cultural assimilation is a two way process, so Han "assimilation," of Southern China likely involved adoption of elements of the various Yue cultures into Han culture on a massive scale, archaeological evidence has shown that rapid changes in Chinese bronze making and pottery culture occurred over this time period for example. The Yue people were much more culturally and ethnically diverse and numerous than the northern nomads ever were, as well as being more "foreign," and different to the Chinese at the time. Nomadic tribes of the North such as the Xianbei were allowed to settle in Han controlled lands since the time of the Eastern Han, so cultural exchange with northern steppe peoples had been occurring long before the time of the Five Barbarians. The Xianbei would have influenced Chinese culture even if they didn't form their own dynasties. While they may have had a somewhat greater influence due to becoming part of the ruling class, their most significant impact on Chinese culture was as a contributory factor for the mass migration of Northern Chinese to the South. By the time of the Sui/Tang, Chinese culture may have been very different from that of the Han. But even during the Han dynasty, Chinese culture had changed so much that a person from Han Wudi's time may barely recognize Chinese culture at the time of the last years of the Eastern Han.

However, the situation in the modern day is very different. Chinese perceptions on cultural and ethnic identity have changed since the end of the Yuan dynasty, and people around the world have formed concepts of ethnic and cultural identity that simply didn't exist anywhere in the world during ancient times. A good example would be the failure of Russia to assimilate Ukrainians for the past three centuries, despite sharing a distant common cultural heritage.
 

Eventine

Junior Member
Registered Member
The entire history of the Chinese civilization is defined by the merging and exchange of cultures and customs of formerly distinct groups of peoples over time. Chinese culture is not and has never been viewed as the culture of one group of people. Since the time of the Zhou, nomadic peoples have influenced Chinese culture and customs. The Zhou dynasty itself was a group of people from the Northeast that were culturally and ethnically distinct from the Shang, and the culture that emerged afterwards was a hybrid of the Shang and Zhou cultures. In fact, during Warring States period, clothing styles were heavily influenced by the dress of the nomadic peoples, and traditionally "Chinese" forms of clothing were discarded. Many of the states during the Spring and Autumn and Warring States periods had consisted of different groups of people of different cultures and customs, all of which influenced "Chinese" culture. These states would also engage in exchange of culture and customs with one another, creating both a shared "Huaxia" culture while still maintaining distinct customs, languages, and local cultures. If the Chu-Han contention had gone the other way, it is very likely that China would have continued to develop as a collection of distinct states which would have over time diverged and formed separate cultural and ethnic identities. During Han dynasty, "Chinese" culture continued to be heavily influenced by the cultures it, "assimilated." Like you mentioned, cultural assimilation is a two way process, so Han "assimilation," of Southern China likely involved adoption of elements of the various Yue cultures into Han culture on a massive scale, archaeological evidence has shown that rapid changes in Chinese bronze making and pottery culture occurred over this time period for example. The Yue people were much more culturally and ethnically diverse and numerous than the northern nomads ever were, as well as being more "foreign," and different to the Chinese at the time. Nomadic tribes of the North such as the Xianbei were allowed to settle in Han controlled lands since the time of the Eastern Han, so cultural exchange with northern steppe peoples had been occurring long before the time of the Five Barbarians. The Xianbei would have influenced Chinese culture even if they didn't form their own dynasties. While they may have had a somewhat greater influence due to becoming part of the ruling class, their most significant impact on Chinese culture was as a contributory factor for the mass migration of Northern Chinese to the South. By the time of the Sui/Tang, Chinese culture may have been very different from that of the Han. But even during the Han dynasty, Chinese culture had changed so much that a person from Han Wudi's time may barely recognize Chinese culture at the time of the last years of the Eastern Han.

However, the situation in the modern day is very different. Chinese perceptions on cultural and ethnic identity have changed since the end of the Yuan dynasty, and people around the world have formed concepts of ethnic and cultural identity that simply didn't exist anywhere in the world during ancient times. A good example would be the failure of Russia to assimilate Ukrainians for the past three centuries, despite sharing a distant common cultural heritage.
The Zhou was from the Northwest, not the Northeast.

Modern day is different, but not as much as you think. The main difference between then and now is that the state-level ethnic identities we tend to record in history books were elite identities, not mass identities. The Shang and the Zhou were their own ethnic identities. But the masses they ruled did not identify as either Shang or Zhou. They identified with their villages or towns.

When you frame the analysis that way, you'll see that the Zhou conquest of Shang was in no way a fun affair. It was, actually, almost like an ethnic cleansing. The Zhou massacred hundreds of Shang nobles at Yinxu, and Shang nobles else where did not peacefully accept Zhou rule. Instead they joined the Rebellion of the Three Guards to oppose the Zhou, and the famous myth of Jizi fleeing to the Northeast implies many Shang loyalists would rather flee the country than join the Zhou.

So what does that teach us? It teaches us that forcing the mixing of two peoples often leads to violence and is never the peaceful, harmonious affair that propaganda would have us believe. The more different the two peoples, the harder it is. To which end, you have to be crazy to voluntarily get yourself into a situation where you are forced to merge two highly distinct peoples in the same country. This is why mass immigration is dangerous.

I don't deny that Chinese history featured many instances of peoples and cultures mixing. But when you look deeper into it, you'll realize that more often than not, this mixing had to be forced, and produced centuries of violence and chaos, which at times led to the destruction of the very government that forced it. Further, the mixing that happened in Chinese history was almost always between related peoples. The Zhou and the Shang were not of different races - both appear to have spoken some variety of Sino-Tibetan - and they had even engaged in marriage alliance for centuries before the Zhou decided to move against the Shang. Yet, still the overthrow was violent, chaotic, and destructive, so much so that the Shang ceased to exist as an identity within a few centuries.

So it's not just modern history that warns us against the forced mixing of distinct peoples. Ancient history carried the same lesson. Now imagine what it'd be like if China were to mass import people who are far more different from Chinese than the Zhou were to the Shang. It's a bad idea.
 
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FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
I think you'll be hard pressed to find a historian who would support that the Five Barbarians did not change China. The Northern Dynasties that followed were very much "barbarian" until Xiaowen's Sinicization campaign; but then Yuwen Tai rolled those back and the results were still present during the Sui-Tang Dynasties, which had half their foot in the "barbarian" world because of the cultural legacy of the immigrants.

The heritage of the Han was not completely lost, but nobody serious about history would pretend that they were completely preserved, either. Just look at the most popular religions in China today. Is it Daoism or Buddhism? Guess which was a "barbarian" influence? Even the language had a huge change over time due to invaders' influence. Mandarin's dominance is widely agreed to be a product of the Khitan-Jurchen-Mongol-Manchu complex. The earlier Sinitic languages were more similar to the southern dialects, which are in decline or dying today.

Mass immigration, like conquest, brings change. There is no question about that.
A cursory look at the actual Mongol, Jurchen, Khitan and Manchu languages makes it clear that none of them sound anything close to Mandarin. None of them are tonal or have monosyllabic morphemes and only Manchu is limited to -vowel and -n/ng endings.

Mandarin evolved because Middle Chinese was changing in the Song dynasty and got too complicated so sounds and tones got merged. It had nothing to do with Mongol, Jurchen, Khitan or Manchu influence. If it did, where are the Mongol, Jurchen, Khitan or Manchu loanwords? Mandarin has more Indian loanwords than all of those combined (yes I know, Jai Hind) and I don't know a single common loanword from any of those languages. In contrast, an actual conquered language like English has like 50% French and Latin vocabulary due to Norman French kings conquering the Anglos.

We also have proof of the natural emergence of Mandarin in the late Song early Yuan era with 中原音韵 which showed how people talked in 1200-1300. The scholars compiling this book even said they realized that how people talked has deviated substantially from the days of 广韵 (1000 AD) and even further from 切韵 (600 AD). The time distance from 切韵 to 中原音韵 is the distance from Anglo-Saxon (800 AD) to barely recognizable modern English (1500 AD). The time distance from 广韵 to 中原音韵 is the distance from Shakespeare to 1950's English. Yet 中原音韵 is already close to modern Mandarin. You'd also note that 中原音韵 is only a few years after the Mongols, far before the Manchus, and in a region far away from the Khitans.

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元代
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迅速发展。在作曲时必须要符合格律,而当时的标准韵书是《
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》。然而从
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到近代汉语,语音发生了巨大的变化,反映自
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初语音的《
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》和《广韵》已经不能反映元代当时的实际的语音系统了。在作曲中是以《广韵》为标准,还是以实际语言的语音为标准,当时有着不同的意见。周德清则属于支持革新的一派。

余尝于天下都会之所,闻人间通济之言:“世之泥古非今、不达时变者众;呼吸之间,动引《广韵》为证,宁甘受鴂舌之诮而不悔。亦不思混一日久,四海同音,上自缙绅讲论治道,及国语翻译,国学教授言语,下至讼庭理民,莫非中原之音。……与坚守《广韵》方语之徒,转其喉舌,换其齿牙,使执而不变、迂阔庸腐之儒皆为通儒,道听涂说、轻浮市廛之子悉为才子矣。”余曰:“若非诸贤公论如此,区区独力,何以争之!”
 
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