China demographics thread.

Michaelsinodef

Senior Member
Registered Member
Man, reading all the demographics stuff, this is really the only thing CPC messed up majorly, yet this could cost the Chinese civilization
Nope, still too early to slam the hammer down and make that judgement.

What's more, population exploding too quickly really isn't as desirable as many people think, because with more population you need: more houses, schools, hospitals, infrastructure etc. but also stuff like more job oppurtunities (it's a negative if too many people go unemployed, in fact, it can be said to be an incredibly big negative).

As for current low TFR, it can still very much be possible for it to rise.
 

ficker22

Senior Member
Registered Member
Nope, still too early to slam the hammer down and make that judgement.

What's more, population exploding too quickly really isn't as desirable as many people think, because with more population you need: more houses, schools, hospitals, infrastructure etc. but also stuff like more job oppurtunities (it's a negative if too many people go unemployed, in fact, it can be said to be an incredibly big negative).

As for current low TFR, it can still very much be possible for it to rise.
Only through Incentives from CPC like housing, education and living cost assistance, we can assure sustainable population growth, and China definetely needs at least 2.1 Children per woman to fix the catastrophic under 2 we have since almost two decades. Housing is another thing where Market oriented systems totally screwed up Lebensraum for the common folk, I am certain most people just cant afford getting kids due to job discimination (for the mother) and unsustainable costs.

Even here in Germany, I would like to have a large family, but on the other side dont want to become broke, in Tier 1 Cities in China the cost factor is even more prevalent. And Tier 1 Cities tent to have Tens of Millions of inhabitants, so millions of child bearing age adults who just cant afford the luxury of (large) family. We have yet to see how CPC will fix this
 

Coalescence

Senior Member
Registered Member
Only through Incentives from CPC like housing, education and living cost assistance, we can assure sustainable population growth, and China definetely needs at least 2.1 Children per woman to fix the catastrophic under 2 we have since almost two decades. Housing is another thing where Market oriented systems totally screwed up Lebensraum for the common folk, I am certain most people just cant afford getting kids due to job discimination (for the mother) and unsustainable costs.

Even here in Germany, I would like to have a large family, but on the other side dont want to become broke, in Tier 1 Cities in China the cost factor is even more prevalent. And Tier 1 Cities tent to have Tens of Millions of inhabitants, so millions of child bearing age adults who just cant afford the luxury of (large) family. We have yet to see how CPC will fix this
From what I've read about what other governments have done to improve the birth rate although most are partially or completely unsuccessful, none of them have tried to tackle the problem with supply-side reform and housing prices regulation, its usually subsidies and incentives which are not very sustainable. The biggest issue is the housing prices and education cost (college, tutoring, extra-curricular), which is also the reason why the birth rate in South East Asia is decreasing now.

If the CPC is able to successful control housing prices and lower the cost/barriers to higher education, combined with the usual subsidies and incentives, then we might see a significant increase in birth rate in the future.
 

ember

New Member
Registered Member
Why don't India and Israel have a problem with birth rates? Because of their long tradition of matchmaking. Israel has
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, and India has literally hundreds of matchmaking sites where parents can seek a spouse for their children.

If China wants to fix their birth rates they need to create an official matchmaking platform and get the parents involved again.
 

mossen

Junior Member
Registered Member
Why don't India and Israel have a problem with birth rates?
India already has sub-replacement fertility rates. Israel's high TFR is due to extreme growth of the Haredi Jews, who barely interact with modern technology and can't sustain a modern economy. They are already 25% of Israel's newborns and the share is only growing. How Israel deals with that is a massive dilemma. Not necessarily something to aspire to.
 

Abominable

Major
Registered Member
Why don't India and Israel have a problem with birth rates? Because of their long tradition of matchmaking. Israel has
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, and India has literally hundreds of matchmaking sites where parents can seek a spouse for their children.

If China wants to fix their birth rates they need to create an official matchmaking platform and get the parents involved again.
India's birth rate is dropping fast, many states are already below replacement rate. They achieved this largely by aborting female babies so India has one of the biggest gender disparities among newborns. The current "currycel" generation and "bob and vageen" memes are largely a consequence of this.

Israel's high fertility rate is interesting. They have a sect of very conservative religious who's fertility rate is extremely high (8+) but they contribute very little economically. Relying on a small subgroup for most of your population growth will have political implications in a few decades as seen in Brazil, Europe and America to a lesser extent.

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The country itself is massively subsided by America and the EU to the point they can afford very generous maternity benefits and standard of life. China can draw zero lessons from Israel's example.
 

SanWenYu

Captain
Registered Member
I've been reading this guy's arguments for a long time, can't deny and can't confirm. However, I am skeptical about it. Some data he includes are interesting, like people enrolling in schools.
If there really were 1.28 billion Chinese and not the 1.41B the consequences for CPC, and China would be devastating.

I don't know what his motivation is but his claim is ridiculous.

If the current population was indeed 1.28 billion as he claims, that'd be 10% less than the offcial number. Given how population surveys are carried out, the survey data would have to be manipulated completely from the village and street level all the way up. That's simply impossible.

National population surveys take place every 10 years. Each requires tens of thousands surveyors to visit every village and street, in addition to the numerous statisticians crunching data at the different levels of the government. Before and after the local survey data are added together and rolled up, they are randomly checked to ensure confidence in the result. The published result is not just as simple as someone declaring "China has a population of 1.41 billion as of 2021. Period." The result actually consists of data to the county level at least. It covers not only the head counts but also ages, genders, ethnicities, employments, educations, family relationships, family wealth, etc. The workload would have been enormous to fake all these data perfectly.

If his claim was true, there would have been 130 million fake head count added to the survey. That'd be more than the population of the most populous provinces in China, such as like Henan, Shandong and Guangdong. Where could the politburo have hidden this much fake head counts in the survey result? Even if the politburo could spread the forgery all over the place down to the villages and streets, a 10% difference between the published result and the reality would still be very noticeable to the tens of thousands surveyors and the savvy locals.

In between the national surveys, the surveyors and statisticians do not just spend days drinking tea in their offices. There are rotating surveys at smaller scales all the time to keep the data up to date. To cover the manipulation in national surveys, these smaller surveys would have to be faked systematically and thoroughly, too.

Accurate population data is critical for almost all economical and social activities. It is cross-referenced every day by all government branches to derive the statistics that are per capita, such as unemployment rate, crime rate, birth rate, rate of primary school enrollment, migration trends, just to name a few. A 10% off in the population data would make all these derived stats off by 10%, too.

Not only the government cares about population data, institutions, private and public, also need the accurate data to run their business. Can you imagine China Telecom, Alibaba and Ctrip planning their business with population data that's 10% off and not realizing the discrepancy over this many years?
 

getready

Senior Member
Search "Matchmaking in China" and "Arranged marriage in China". Its still a tradition in China. The problem is more of a socio-economic issue.
Yeah, not sure why he mentioned this. This practice or tradition is still practiced in China. Heck even foreigners in China know this when they see those old parents gathering in parks or those massive numbers of advertisements posted in parks looking for suitable matches for their kids or grandkids lol
 

xypher

Senior Member
Registered Member
I have to also mention that even in the event of population decline, the doom & gloom predictions are vastly overstated in my opinion. As-is, China is still struggling to maintain low unemployment, and with labor-intensive jobs inevitably leaving for cheaper countries, this issue will keep intensifying. The main reason is that high-tech advanced industries usually do not require as many people, the same goes for service jobs. You can see that in India - their focus on services led to the majority of people being simply excluded from the productive workforce. Even jobs in agriculture are shrinking with growing mechanization - I remember there was a report where Chinese agriculture had really low levels of mechanization compared to developed countries which were all sitting at 90%+.

I think the focus of the Chinese government should be not on creating another population boom (I think this goal is frankly unrealistic) but on securing a stable transition and ensuring a higher quality of the new smaller workforce. Growth in productivity and moving to high-value industries can easily offset the population decline, China has plenty of room for both.
 
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