China Coast Guard and Patrol vessels

chuck731 said:

Using 200 year old naval parlance, a vessel rigged as schooner would properly be called a "cutter" if it was commanded by a junior lieutenant.

If we use such archaic parlances, then what to call the 12,000 ton coast guard vessels would depend on the rank of its commanding officer. Some how I suspect so large and impressive a ship would be given either to a full captain as an independent command, or even to a commadore as a flagship of a squadron. In which case this 12,000 ton vessel would properly be called a "ship", not a "sloop" or a "cutter".

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At the time the names cutter and schooner denoted different rigs. A short while earlier vessels were called for the shape of the hull. See for example A.F.Chapman Architectura Navalis Mercatoria from the 18th century - my edition is from 1971.
The sloop was a special case around 1800 - it could be a boat belonging to a ship, it could be a single masted vessel with a standing bowsprit ( the cutter had a running bowsprit ), it could also be rigged as a brig or other two masted vessel, it could even be ship rigged.

delft said:

At the time the names cutter and schooner denoted different rigs. A short while earlier vessels were called for the shape of the hull. See for example A.F.Chapman Architectura Navalis Mercatoria from the 18th century - my edition is from 1971.
The sloop was a special case around 1800 - it could be a boat belonging to a ship, it could be a single masted vessel with a standing bowsprit ( the cutter had a running bowsprit ), it could also be rigged as a brig or other two masted vessel, it could even be ship rigged.

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There are two different usages simulataneously in use in the 1700s and early 1800s.

One usage is official in the Royal Navy, and probably early Federal Navy and Revenue cutter service as well. Here "cutter" refers to any commissioned vessel commanded by a junior lieutenant. "Sloop" refers to any commissioned vessel commanded by a "Master and Commander", or equivalent of modern Lieutenant commander. "Ship" refers to any commissioned vessel commanded by a "Post Captain", or equivalent of modern full captain. This usage disregards the rig of the vessel or its hull configuration.

The other usage is common in the rest of the maritime community, and also in the Royal Navy as well when not using official languages. Here the "cutter" means a single masted vessel with fore and aft sail plan, a "Sloop" is a variaton of the Cutter with a gaff sail, and a Schooner is a two masted vessel with fore-aft sail on both masts and the aft mast being taller than the front one.

Incidentally. I use the word "vessel" instead of "ship" for a reason. In common maritime usage 200 years ago, "ship" had a different meaning than today. Today a ship is general term covering virtually any large surface vessel able to propelle itself through the water. 200 years ago "ship", outside Royal Navy, is used just like the terms "Schooner" or "Cutter" to denote a vessel bearing a specific rigging plan. "Ship" is a vessel with 3 masts, each separated into at least two segments with a topmast over a lower mast, carrying square (side-to-side) sails on all three masts. You wouldn't call a "Barque" (A vessel with 3 masts, carrying square sails on only the first 2 masts, and only fore-aft sails on the third mast) a ship. A "Barque" is to be distinguished from a "Barquetine", which is ship, excuse me, vessel with 3 masts, carrying square sails on only the front mast, and only fore-aft sails on the second and third masts.

Because a Barquetine differs from a Schooner by the addition of just one mast, a "barquetine" is sometimes called a "schooner Bark"

Other terms denoting vessels with other sail plans, never to be called ships, includes "Ketch", which is like a cutter, but with one more mast; "Yaw", which is like a ketch, but with the extra mast positioned further back behind the rudder post; "Polacca", which can be rigged just like a ship, but whose masts are made from a single pole instead of 2 or more segments. etc, etc.

With ESC heating up, China CG should put the same kind of arms on their ships as Japan CG ships.

Blackstone said:

With ESC heating up, China CG should put the same kind of arms on their ships as Japan CG ships.

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To date, China has specifically chosen to not arm its Coast Guard and Maritime Surveillance vessels with any deck or crew serviced weapons. I imagine they do have small arms.

They do not want to be seen as in any way being the aggressor...but they do back up theses vessels with the PLAN who stand ready to come to their assistance...and I believe most other nations recognize it.

Just the same, they are building large, modern, and capable vessels with very little if any armament. I have always wondered whether there were provisions to add such armament to them. Sort of designed "for," but not "with," type of a thing.

If they are, then they could significantly increase the numbers of 3,000 to 4,000 ton escort vessels available to them in an emergency very quickly.

Jeff Head said:

To date, China has specifically chosen to not arm its Coast Guard and Maritime Surveillance vessels with any deck or crew serviced weapons. I imagine they do have small arms.

They do not want to be seen as in any way being the aggressor...but they do back up theses vessels with the PLAN who stand ready to come to their assistance...and I believe most other nations recognize it.

Just the same, they are building large, modern, and capable vessels with very little if any armament. I have always wondered whether there were provisions to add such armament to them. Sort of designed "for," but not "with," type of a thing.

If they are, then they could significantly increase the numbers of 3,000 to 4,000 ton escort vessels available to them in an emergency very quickly.

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How about passive tools such as sonar, TAS, VDS, that could provide intel? Would that be seen as being aggressive on a civilian vessel?

Jeff Head said:

To date, China has specifically chosen to not arm its Coast Guard and Maritime Surveillance vessels with any deck or crew serviced weapons. I imagine they do have small arms.

They do not want to be seen as in any way being the aggressor...but they do back up theses vessels with the PLAN who stand ready to come to their assistance...and I believe most other nations recognize it.

Just the same, they are building large, modern, and capable vessels with very little if any armament. I have always wondered whether there were provisions to add such armament to them. Sort of designed "for," but not "with," type of a thing.

If they are, then they could significantly increase the numbers of 3,000 to 4,000 ton escort vessels available to them in an emergency very quickly.

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Many of their newer cutters that are in the pipeline will be launched "with" armament. There's multiple classes (each having a projected build count of anywhere from x3, x6, to x12), of various displacements (3000t+, 4000t+, 5000t+ and of course the 12,000t+) that are under construction that drawings show illustrated with a single AK-176.

There are also some current, smaller boats armed with crew served or remote controlled weapon mounts, but they're rarely seen doing longer range patrols such as ones involving island disputes.


Currently, most of the larger CCG cutters do seem to lack substantial armament, but the coming tidal wave of new ships will be decently armed for their sizes. Perhaps not as good as the Legend class, but some of the larger ones will definitely field a 76mm gun.

Bltizo said:

Many of their newer cutters that are in the pipeline will be launched "with" armament. There's multiple classes (each having a projected build count of anywhere from x3, x6, to x12), of various displacements (3000t+, 4000t+, 5000t+ and of course the 12,000t+) that are under construction that drawings show illustrated with a single AK-176.

The coming tidal wave of new ships will be decently armed for their sizes. Perhaps not as good as the Legend class, but some of the larger ones will definitely field a 76mm gun.

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Thanks, Bltizo, I had not seen this. That will be interesting to see.

Are there any pics of what these 12,000 ton "cutters" will look like? Artists impressions or anything like that?

...and, I might add, with a 76mm gun, arguably it will be more heavily armed than the Legend Class which has a main armament of a 57mm gun. Now, the Legend also has a 20mm Phalanx CIWS and four .50 cal MGs, but I am sure the Chinese cutter will have smaller weapons as well.

But the 76mm gun will out range the 57mm and probably be rapid fire and DP as well.

Jeff Head said:

To date, China has specifically chosen to not arm its Coast Guard and Maritime Surveillance vessels with any deck or crew serviced weapons. I imagine they do have small arms.

They do not want to be seen as in any way being the aggressor...but they do back up theses vessels with the PLAN who stand ready to come to their assistance...and I believe most other nations recognize it.

Just the same, they are building large, modern, and capable vessels with very little if any armament. I have always wondered whether there were provisions to add such armament to them. Sort of designed "for," but not "with," type of a thing.

If they are, then they could significantly increase the numbers of 3,000 to 4,000 ton escort vessels available to them in an emergency very quickly.

Click to expand...

I suspect any nation with a coast guard would regard its coast guard as an reserve force in case of armed conflict. So these ships almost certainly have space, electrical power, wiring, and possibly also protection built in to swiftly receive substantial armament without any significant modifications to existing structures and interior partition.

Check these new Salvage and Recuse vessals

111, 112, 113, 115 and 116

As well as 2401 and 3401 here's is the launch cermonly of the 3rd unit 1401

That's 3 x 4000 ton China coast guard vessals a big fleet in the making