China Ballistic Missiles and Nuclear Arms Thread

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AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Re: China's DF-41

Nuclear missile defence is questionable. China is never going to have an arsenal as large as the US so the US can only do is maybe destroy the world one time more. Besides with a country as large as China, the US will have to use a lot of nukes. I bet neighboring countries, especially allies, won't like the fallout from that. That's another factor the US has to take account. China can close the technology gap. There's no rule that if one country is x amount of years ahead of another, that will remain constant along as the leading country goes on uninterrupted. The ASAT test shows China can start their own ballistic missile defense. If you go back to 1972 when Nixon went to China, US "experts" thought China would never be at the place you see it today.
 

Violet Oboe

Junior Member
Re: China's DF-41

Well, that report is Norris, Kristensen at their ´best´ and their ´findings´have been discussed in several threds on this forum since last summer. Needless to say that a relevant number of PLA analysts does not subscribe to their view and as far as I know the whole piece is intended (at least from the view of reclusive scandinavian Kristensen (heard that from a guy who knows that wonk personally:D )) as a healthy provocation sparking a controversial discussion in chinese expert circles. (so let the games begin!:) )

Interestingly they backtracked in some points like their initial mention (in previous papers) of a suddenly nearly vanished IRBM force of ´under 20 DF-21´ and currently they maintain it could well be ´around 50´, but as Norris has it: quote: nothing is known for sure:roll: .

Really news were only some details in their FOIA requested declassified documents like the fact that the DIA estimated in 1984 the number of PLA nukes at 360 but that public knowledge thought them to be somewhat higher at 410-430 warheads but that is certainly not a big surprise since at that time the soviets had to be kept guessing. Additionally their revelations about SAC's massive strike plans against the PRC are certainly startling and I recommend every chinese interested in the security of their country to read that report very carefully since they will eventually learn that this ´game´ is deadly serious and that the leadership in Beijing must draw timely consequences. Unfourtunately some people in the inner circle of the CPC have not yet fully grasped that the times of Deng Xiaoping are gone forever and that ignoring some unpleasant facts about China's strategic vulnerabilities would put the whole nation in harms way!:mad:
Correspondingly the beginning of a sincere discussion about China's comprehensive security between informed people is quite necessary and China's leaders should know that ignoring facts resulting from this process would be at their own peril.:nono:
 

renmin

Junior Member
Re: China's DF-41

I really think that china's nuke force is just too insignificant to counter US. Chinese nuclear deterrence capability is just always couple of steps behind the US's offensive capabilities which basically render them ineffective. The triad of nuclear deterrence, being ICBMs SSBNs and bombers, there is not one in which China has either the sufficient numbers or the technology leap to make them effective means of deterrence.
take for example their yet to deploy DF-31/DF-31A, the most modern ICBM developed by china. Sure its a good system with high survivability, but it is simply not enough to counter the US. One reason because China won't have it in sufficient numbers in the comcing 10 years to beat the US missile shield. And when it does in like 15 to 20 years, the US would have developed effective means to track and destroy them in a preemptive strike (such tracking systems are already in the make).
Now look at the SSBNs, these systems are even more flawed as already pointed out in previous posts: they are vulerable to US hunter killers because China wouldn't have the means to protect them in case of a crisis.
So based on all these, I can only come to my conclusion that China does not and will not (in the foreseeable future) possess a credible nuke force capable of detering the US...
You watch too many "Star Wars" (GET IT!? :D )
US has a good missile defense system true, but these are mostly designed to handle SRBMs and not ICBMs at least yet. If US wanted to nuke the crap out of China or China doing the same, it would probably destroy the world. Plus, neither country would use any weapon first thereby canceling each other out. China today is really catching up in terms of technology for ICBMs but US is still far away in achieving the Reagon dream of placing satilitles with laser cannons:roll:
China only aims to build nukes in hopes of stopping other countries from nuking her. That is the main objective. It is not normally the numbers you have but if you have one, you are a threat.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Re: China's DF-41

I really think that china's nuke force is just too insignificant to counter US. Chinese nuclear deterrence capability is just always couple of steps behind the US's offensive capabilities which basically render them ineffective. The triad of nuclear deterrence, being ICBMs SSBNs and bombers, there is not one in which China has either the sufficient numbers or the technology leap to make them effective means of deterrence.
take for example their yet to deploy DF-31/DF-31A, the most modern ICBM developed by china. Sure its a good system with high survivability, but it is simply not enough to counter the US. One reason because China won't have it in sufficient numbers in the comcing 10 years to beat the US missile shield. And when it does in like 15 to 20 years, the US would have developed effective means to track and destroy them in a preemptive strike (such tracking systems are already in the make).
Now look at the SSBNs, these systems are even more flawed as already pointed out in previous posts: they are vulerable to US hunter killers because China wouldn't have the means to protect them in case of a crisis.
So based on all these, I can only come to my conclusion that China does not and will not (in the foreseeable future) possess a credible nuke force capable of detering the US...

Nobody know how many missile and nuclear warhead China posses plus the ABM is imperfect system that rush into operations It is imperfect system at best We do know that China has vigorous missile program Anybody who underestimate Chinese capability will do so at their their own peril here is the latest article from Aviation Week

China Accelerates Missile Tests, Reports AVIATION WEEK

WASHINGTON, April 6 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- Secret new U. S. intelligence about China proves the Chinese are accelerating the test of new medium and long range ballistic missiles, reports AVIATION WEEK, which broke the story on its website, AviationWeek.com, today. The complete story will appear in the April 9 issue of Aviation Week & Space Technology (AW&ST).

In the story, AVIATION WEEK also reports that China is demonstrating a wide range of new tactics with those missiles. The new Chinese missile development could affect Taiwan and U. S. strategy toward China, especially if China were ever to attack Taiwan. The Chinese tests indicate that China is gaining a much more powerful ability to militarily deter the U.S. or attack U.S. soil or assets such as aircraft carriers at sea.

Much of this information comes from several U.S. Air Force Defense Support Program (DSP) missile warning spacecraft watching China from geostationary orbit, 22,300 miles above the Earth. The April 9 issue of AW&ST will carry an exclusive report about how the DSP constellation of missile warning satellites monitors not only China, but also Iran, North Korea and other countries. The same spacecraft are also seeing a similar acceleration of Iranian ballistic missile test activity.

The story quotes Dr. Edward Tagliaferri, a longtime independent consultant to the Air Force and Northrop Grumman on use of the spacecraft, as saying, "Both the Chinese and Iranians have very vigorous test programs. The number of (ballistic missile launch) events we are seeing with DSP are increasing."

"China's missile testing is surpassing anything since the Soviet Union's missile buildup of the 1960s," John Pike, director of Globalsecurity.org, says in the Aviation Week report. "It is as if China was in near war-time production of missiles ... in what amounts to the largest missile production and test rate seen since the Cold War with the Soviet Union," Pike says.

Craig Covault, overall Senior Editor for AW&ST, reported the story. Covault has written about 3,000 major articles on space and aeronautics during 34 years at the publication, including extensive reporting on national security space issues. Covault has filed stories from 20 countries and written extensively from Europe, Russia, and Japan. He also has extensive experience across China covering Chinese space and aeronautics. He is a pilot and has flown about 20 major military aircraft including numerous bomber, high performance fighter and command and control aircraft. Covault served as AW&ST's Paris Bureau Chief from 1992-1996.

The China story is the third significant international defense story to break this year via AVIATION WEEK's newly redesigned website. The January 18 story "Chinese Test Anti-Satellite Weapon" and January 25 story "Iran's Sputnik" were also reported by Covault.



Related link: AW&ST
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Violet Oboe

Junior Member
Re: China's DF-41

The upcoming article in Aviation Week seems to confirm some speculations being around for some time but I have to read the complete piece first.:coffee:

The strong comments by John Pike ("It is as if China was in near war-time production of missiles ... in what amounts to the largest missile production and test rate seen since the Cold War with the Soviet Union") are certainly startling since he knows indeed people who are in the know. Perhaps more details will become public in the next months and more and more ignorant and naive illusions of western supremacists will be shattered!:D
 

Schumacher

Senior Member
Re: China's DF-41

I sure am interested to see what Aviation Week has to say abt this 'increased test rate'. I think there was only one publicized ICBM test by PLA last yr around Sept of what I think was a JL-2.
Have always thought BM tests are impossible to hide. Perhaps Aviation Week will talk abt upcoming tests rather than past tests that were not picked up by the general media.
 

fishhead

Banned Idiot
Re: China's DF-41

Just got a new photo from Chinese site, a new ICBM, never seen before.

Did a simple calculation, height > 18m, Diameter(tube) > 2.5m, seems more powerful than DF31.

FAS DF31 spec: length 10+ m, diameter 2m

Chinese DF31 speculation: length 13.4m, diameter 2.2m

dfxxyq3.jpg
 
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Violet Oboe

Junior Member
Re: China's DF-41

Dongfeng himself had posted about these startling pics at his blog! :china:

Really striking is the fact that the two missiles are in fact different (take a look at the respective nosecones!). This could indicate that these ´babies´are indeed fully MIRV capable or can be equipped with a new kind of conventional warhead (non-nuclear EMP?).

So what type of missiles are they? In my view two explanations are most likely:
1. This is DF-31A. Without doubt this would be a major step forward for China towards being a true second strike capable nuclear power.
2. This is a heavily modified DF-21 (DF-21M?) intended for a special strike role (perhaps the much talked of ´carrier killer´?). How precise are these new warheads,... like cruise missiles 3-5 m CEP?
 

Eurofighter

New Member
Re: China's DF-41

in Richard Fisher's article "Two Cheers For the 2007 PLA Report" (for more please refer to
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), he has mentioned an allegedly new Chinese TEL, possibly meant to carry the DF-31A.

The TEL, based on the pictures provided by Fisher, clearly differs from what we saw in Dongfeng's post; in addition the TEL also looks like it is build to hold a much bigger and heavier missile. So I was thinking, the ICBM from Dongfeng's post might indeed be an improved/modified DF-21 which may or may not have a special purpose. while the TEL from Richard Fisher's article shows the 'real' long speculated DF-31A launcher.
 
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Roger604

Senior Member
Re: China's DF-41

^ That is correct. The photographs released of an TEL vehicle apparently being driven around and tested on the road is the DF-31A.

12mb2.jpg

44ag3.jpg


Compare this TEL vehicle with the Topol-M. Look at the placement of the rear view mirrors and the headlights. Look at the wheels -- two wheels followed by a gap, and then followed by six wheels. It's clear that the TEL vehicles are identical. The only difference between the DF-31A and Topol-M vehicles shown is that the DF-31A missile tube has a different surface texture.

topol-m_1.jpg


My guess is that China developed the DF-31 by 1999 and could have deployed it by 2002/2003. But because the DF-31 is a bit too short-ranged, they decided not to serial produce it and went straight to next-generation DF-31A, which is basically a Topol-M copy. So the DF-31 was never deployed, and the missile that was reported by latest Pentagon Report as having entered service in 2006 is actually the DF-31A.

The ballistic missile in the picture is much smaller in diameter than an ICBM. The top of the tube looks like it's about 13 meters off the ground and the width of the tube looks like it's about 1.7 meters wide. That's close to the DF-21 MRBM, which according to SinoDefence is 10.7 meters tall and 1.4 meters in diameter. So it looks like it's a new variant MRBM like DF-21 but with a TEL vehicle like DF-11 / DF-15.

Those warheads could be anything! Conventional? Nuclear? MIRV nuclear? MaRV anti-ship? Low-yield EMP? ASAT? ABM?
 
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