China Ballistic Missiles and Nuclear Arms Thread

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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
China test fired DF-41 and media has ingored it?

What do you think? Gertz is only source so far what I have managed to find about this claimed DF-41test launch.


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This is a good news indeed . The western pundit have been speculating that DF 41 was failed and China encountered difficulty in the development. Nothing but hot air as usual. lthough the source is of dubious nature as he is known as panda slayer. But they have been working on this missile for a long time so it is conceivable that now the time is ripe for test




BY: Bill Gertz
August 15, 2012 5:00 am

China’s military conducted the first flight test of a new long-range intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) that U.S. officials say will be Beijing’s first strategic missile armed with multiple warheads.

The flight test of the DF-41 road-mobile ICBM occurred July 24 and is raising new concerns within the U.S. military and intelligence agencies over China’s long-range missile threat, according to officials familiar with reports of the test.

The DF-41 missile is a first-strike nuclear capability, based on its mobility, estimated range, targeting precision, and multiple warheads.

In addition to shorter-range ICBMs known as the DF-31 and DF-31A, which are believed to target India and Russia, the new ICBM is said by U.S. officials to be designed to hit U.S. targets with multiple nuclear warheads.

China has claimed it will not be the first to use nuclear weapons and that its nuclear forces are designed for a counterstrike against a nuclear attack on its territory.

The DF-41 development has called into question the so-called no-first-use policy, officials said.

The test is also likely to renew debate within U.S. intelligence circles about whether China is seeking only a limited nuclear force, or is secretly building up its nuclear forces to challenge U.S. strategic power.

The new missile bolsters China’s strategic forces, making them among the most diverse in the world, with a variety of short-, medium-, intermediate-, and intercontinental-range missiles.

China also has developed ground-launched anti-satellite missiles and a unique anti-ship ballistic missile with enough accuracy to hit U.S. aircraft carriers at sea.


Purported photos of China’s DF-41

It is also believed that the DF-41 is part of efforts by China to develop missiles that can defeat U.S. strategic missile defenses. The Pentagon currently has a limited system capable of stopping a few North Korean ICBMs.

Former military intelligence official Larry Wortzel, a member of the congressional U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission, said the DF-41′s multiple warheads are expected to include special simulated warheads called “penetration aids” that are designed counter U.S. missile defense sensors.

The DF-41 “is mobile and will be very hard to detect and counter because of that mobility,” Wortzel said. “The warhead array will most certainly include penetration aids.”

A Pentagon spokeswoman declined to comment on the missile test.

Details of the flight test could not be learned.

However, past China flight tests of long-range missiles involved launches from the Wuzhai Space and Missile Test Center that flew west into the far western Chinese desert several thousand miles away. Analysts say such flight tests are often shortened by limiting the time the first stage fires in order to keep the missile within Chinese territory.


Purported photos of China’s DF-41

“There are credible references to a DF-41 program in the Chinese literature,” said Mark Stokes, a former Pentagon official and specialist on China’s strategic nuclear systems.

“The system appears to incorporate a new, larger solid rocket motor than that used on the DF-31 series of delivery vehicles. Ground tests on the motor have been underway for a couple of years.”

Stokes, executive director of the Project 2049 Institute, said the Chinese military’s Second Artillery Corps, which is in charge of both strategic and non-nuclear missiles, is working to integrate the DF-41 into its operational inventory.

“Tentative indications exist that the Second Artillery force has established an operational test and evaluation unit in southern Henan Province,” he said.

Stokes said it is not clear whether the current DF-41 program is similar to an earlier program in the 1990s that was believed to have been converted into the less-capable DF-31A missile, “but it looks real.”

U.S. intelligence analysts suspect the DF-41 is based on Russia’s long-range mobile missile known as the SS-27 and that Russian missile guidance technology—either purchased or stolen by Chinese spies—is part of the system.

Phillip Karber, a Georgetown University professor who has studied Chinese nuclear programs, said the DF-41 test could signal a major boost in estimates of China’s strategic nuclear forces.


Purported photos of China’s DF-41

Karber said it is likely the DF-41 will carry three warheads, and if the Chinese follow Russia’s model of building three re-load missiles for each launcher, the number of Chinese strategic warheads could more than double from current levels.

A future DF-41 force of some 32 missiles with reloads and multiple warheads would be enough for China to target every U.S. city with a population over 50,000 people, Karber said.

“If the Chinese end up developing that kind of counter-value posture against American cities, and we do not build missile defenses against it, it spells the end of extended nuclear deterrence for Asia,” Karber said. The result would be a likely nuclear arms race in Asia.

Richard Fisher, a specialist on the Chinese military affairs, said the DF-41 has been under development since 1986, but the U.S. government is only now recognizing it.

“Pentagon reticence to disclose information about this missile is further confused by the fact that Chinese Internet source images of the 18-wheel Transporter-Erector-Launcher (TEL) for this missile have been available since 2007,” said Fisher, a senior fellow at the International Assessment and Strategy Center. “There are now four distinct images of this TEL that show it is a very large mobile ICBM, similar in size to modern Russian mobile ICBMs.”

Fisher said the DF-41 test is probably the missile referenced briefly in the Pentagon’s 2011 annual report on the Chinese military but omitted from this year’s abbreviated report to Congress.

In addition to the DF-31 and DF-31A, “China may also be developing a new road-mobile ICBM, possibly capable of carrying a multiple independently targetable re-entry vehicle (MIRV),” the Pentagon report said.

The website missilethreat.com reported that the DF-41 can be armed with up to 10 MIRV warheads.

The DF-41 “is easily capable of striking the United States and will likely become the core of the PRC’s nuclear strike force,” Missilethreat.com stated in its assessment.

Its maximum range is estimated to be 8,699 miles, enough to reach targets throughout the United States from mobile launchers in eastern or northern China.

China, to date, has not been known to place multiple warheads on its missiles, but obtained technology from the United States in the 1990s for launching multiple satellites on a launcher that U.S. officials say provides a base for MIRV warheads.

China also obtained through espionage details of the U.S. W-88 small nuclear warhead in the 1990s, according to U.S. intelligence assessments. The W-88 is used on U.S. submarine-launched ballistic missiles and is considered suitable for multiple-warhead missiles.

China’s total nuclear warhead force is unknown. U.S. intelligence agencies estimate there are between 300 and 400 warheads in the Chinese arsenal.

However, the actual number could be far higher, based on recent disclosures that China has built 3,000 miles of underground tunnels and nuclear facilities throughout the country.


Purported photos of China’s DF-41

Fisher said he was told by a foreign military source in 2010 that the new long-range mobile missile could carry as many as 10 warheads, which means U.S. estimates of Chinese warhead stockpiles may be low.

“So if you assume that a PLA Second Artillery contains 18 ICBM size missiles, that could mean an increase of 180 warheads per deployed brigade,” Fisher said.

“Judging from the PLA production rate for the DF-31A ICBM, it appears they could easily produce up to one new brigade per year. So if we assume that testing transitions to continuous production and deployment by 2015, then it is plausible that the DF-41 alone could account for up to 900 warheads by 2020.”

China’s warhead force for long-range missiles could be has high as 1,032, based on the number of submarines and mobile missile brigades China is deploying, Fisher said.

“These are plausible estimates; they may or may not happen, [but] the point is that we don’t know for sure, and the PLA has made crystal clear that it does not want to talk to the U.S. government about its current or future nuclear missile capabilities,” Fisher said.

In addition to China’s refusal to hold strategic nuclear talks, Beijing also may be engaged in a “massive deception” that Fisher says is highlighted by the 3,000 miles of underground nuclear tunnels to support nuclear and military forces.

The flight test of the DF-41 also undermined the analysis of some specialists who have sought to play down China’s nuclear ambitions.

For example, the Federation of American Scientists reported in 2008 that the DF-41 program was canceled.

The trade publication Jane’s Strategic Weapons Systems reported in February that the DF-41 would replace China’s older, silo-based strategic missiles, known as the DF-5 and DF-5A.

“The development for DF-41 is believed to be managed by the China Aerospace Sciences and Industry Corporation (CASIC), Beijing,” Jane’s stated in its report.

“The flight test program is managed by the Second Artillery Corps, based at the Wuzhai test center in Shanxi province. There was one reported ground test and a simulated cold launch in October 1999, but no test flights have been reported.”

Initially, the DF-41 was described as a missile built from the first two stages of the DF-31 with a lengthened third stage.

“But it is now believed that this description referred to the DF-31A, and that the DF-41 is a new design,” Jane’s stated, noting that both road mobile launchers and railroad car launchers could be used.

This entry was posted in National Security and tagged Bill Gertz, China, Defense, Missile, Nuclear. Bookmark the permalink.
 

balance

Junior Member
“If the Chinese end up developing that kind of counter-value posture against American cities, and we do not build missile defenses against it, it spells the end of extended nuclear deterrence for Asia,” Karber said. The result would be a likely nuclear arms race in Asia.

Please explain to me to logic behind this statement. Apart from US and Russia, who wants to take the path of nuclear arms race against China in Asia? Japan? India? It smells like right-wing hawkish guy asking for more budgets. Am I correct? Please advise.
 

kroko

Senior Member
China test fired DF-41 and media has ingored it?

What do you think? Gertz is only source so far what I have managed to find about this claimed DF-41test launch.


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hmmm...this is the same news outlet that announced a few days ago that a russian SSN had sailed in the gulf of mexico undetected for weeks.

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The pentagon almost immediatly denied that story.

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This episode, coupled with the fact that for years there has been no mention of DF-41 in the DoD PLA report, makes me doubt about the veracity of this report.
 

Broccoli

Senior Member
I remember seeing this pic back in 2007 first time, and already then it was claimed to be first pic of DF-41. If it's DF-31A why didn't they show it during the 2009 parade?
lSeyn.jpg



This TEL was shown during the 2009 parade and announcer told that it was DF-31A ICBM. When CCTV has shown DF-31 units training it's always this one we have seen...
Sr8MP.jpg
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
hmmm...this is the same news outlet that announced a few days ago that a russian SSN had sailed in the gulf of mexico undetected for weeks.

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The pentagon almost immediatly denied that story.

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This episode, coupled with the fact that for years there has been no mention of DF-41 in the DoD PLA report, makes me doubt about the veracity of this report.

Pentagon is not penultimate source of truth. They don't necessarily inform the public about every chinese military development. it doesn't mean that they don't know about Chinese military deveopment. It just they don't think it necessary to inform the public and create panic .

I remember quite well when China test the ASAT Pentagon stay mum for days only when one of the insider leak it to the press they start to come out with public confirmation of the test

They consistently under estimate the spreed and breath of Chinese military development.

Case in point China did successfully ended the deveopment phase of JL2 with the salvo test firing of 16 missile
back in April 2012 But when you read the congressional economic and secuirty report on China They keep regurgitating the same tired report year afte year practically without any change

Report: Chinese Sub Test-Launches ICBMs
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By Wendell Minnick


TAIPEI - China test-launched six Julang-2 (JL-2) submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBMs) sometime before the new year from a submarine in the Bohai Sea, according to reports by a local daily newspaper.


Chinese fishermen near the test found one of the missile's booster rockets, said the reports in Qilu Wanbao, a newspaper based in Jinan, Shandong.


Such a capability could eventually allow China to launch a surprise attack on U.S. cities with nuclear-tipped ballistic missiles. The tests came as U.S. President Barack Obama announced plans to pivot U.S. defense strategy toward the Asia-Pacific region.


If the reports are true, the JL-2 test launch "shows that China is well advanced toward the development of a sea-based nuclear deterrent capability," said Sam Bateman, a submarine specialist at the S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies at Nanyang Technology University in Singapore. "A fully operational capability, however, is still some years away, but the Chinese are catching up rapidly."
 

kroko

Senior Member
Pentagon is not penultimate source of truth. They don't necessarily inform the public about every chinese military development. it doesn't mean that they don't know about Chinese military deveopment. It just they don't think it necessary to inform the public and create panic .

I remember quite well when China test the ASAT Pentagon stay mum for days only when one of the insider leak it to the press they start to come out with public confirmation of the test

keeping silent is different from denieing. The SSN was denied. They never denied that the ASAT test ocurred.

They consistently under estimate the spreed and breath of Chinese military development.

Case in point China did successfully ended the deveopment phase of JL2 with the salvo test firing of 16 missile
back in April 2012 But when you read the congressional economic and secuirty report on China They keep regurgitating the same tired report year afte year practically without any change

Report: Chinese Sub Test-Launches ICBMs
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By Wendell Minnick


TAIPEI - China test-launched six Julang-2 (JL-2) submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBMs) sometime before the new year from a submarine in the Bohai Sea, according to reports by a local daily newspaper.


Chinese fishermen near the test found one of the missile's booster rockets, said the reports in Qilu Wanbao, a newspaper based in Jinan, Shandong.


Such a capability could eventually allow China to launch a surprise attack on U.S. cities with nuclear-tipped ballistic missiles. The tests came as U.S. President Barack Obama announced plans to pivot U.S. defense strategy toward the Asia-Pacific region.


If the reports are true, the JL-2 test launch "shows that China is well advanced toward the development of a sea-based nuclear deterrent capability," said Sam Bateman, a submarine specialist at the S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies at Nanyang Technology University in Singapore. "A fully operational capability, however, is still some years away, but the Chinese are catching up rapidly."

wait. You base your opinion that JL2 has finished its development phase on a news article about a news article ???

back at DF-41, it would be nice if more news outlet followed this story
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
keeping silent is different from denieing. The SSN was denied. They never denied that the ASAT test ocurred.



wait. You base your opinion that JL2 has finished its development phase on a news article about a news article ???

back at DF-41, it would be nice if more news outlet followed this story

Now who is talking here . The same person who blindly believe ONI report saying that Chinese submarine are noisy even though they issue the report before the Chinese even built type 95 How can do that Vodoo science

You apparently didn't read the report. The news was started when Chinese fisherman retrieve what look like a second and thrid stage of the missile with JL2 part printed on it . The best proof is the physical proof .

You can believe what you want but you were proven worng so many time that it is not worth debating anymore . isn't it you that not too long ago swore that Varyag never sail because China lack the capability to built simple Steam turbine . Well I got news for you next month they will officially commission the ship!
 

kroko

Senior Member
Now who is talking here . The same person who blindly believe ONI report saying that Chinese submarine are noisy even though they issue the report before the Chinese even built type 95 How can do that Vodoo science

I dont blindly believe that report. But it is the most reliable information we have on PLAN sub quietness. That was a estimative based on china´s tech progress with SSN so far.
You apparently didn't read the report. The news was started when Chinese fisherman retrieve what look like a second and thrid stage of the missile with JL2 part printed on it . The best proof is the physical proof .
So, there was a JL2 test. That isn’t “proof” that JL2 has finished its development phase. It doesn’t say much really. A SLBM needs a lot of tests before coming into service.

isn't it you that not too long ago swore that Varyag never sail because China lack the capability to built simple Steam turbine . Well I got news for you next month they will officially commission the ship!
No, it wasn’t me. I never swore that varyag would never sail. I only raised the issue of china having or not a domestic military engine to propel varyag. Even today we cant say for sure that varyag´s engine is of Chinese or Russian/Ukrainian origin. I have a personal theory that varyag´s engines have always remained in ship, and that china only repaired them. But that’s just a theory. As for commissioning the ship, how do you know that? Voodo science?
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
As I said before China test their missile to send message. Three consecutive missile test are their answer to recent pivot to Asia move by the US


Chinese Missile Tests Continue

China conducts third long-range missile test in 4 weeks

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BY: Bill Gertz
August 23, 2012 5:00 am

China’s military continued its string of strategic missile flight tests on Monday by firing off a third intercontinental ballistic missile in four weeks, according to U.S. officials.

U.S. military sensors detected the latest flight test, which took place in the early morning hours at China’s Wuzhai Missile and Space Test Center, near the town of Wuzhai in northwestern Shanxi province, about 267 miles southwest of Beijing.

The missile was tracked to impact range in the western Chinese desert and was identified as a CSS-4 Mod 2 silo-based ICBM.
It followed the first flight test of a new road-mobile DF-41 multiple-warhead missile on July 24 and the test firing of a new submarine-launched ballistic missile, the JL-2, which is also assessed to be capable of carrying multiple warheads.


It could not be learned if the CSS-4, also called the DF-5A, was assessed to have tested or was configured for multiple warheads or dummy warheads used to fool missile defenses.

U.S. intelligence analysts have said that China is expected to field multiple warhead missiles in the near future. One reason for upgrading from single warhead missiles is China’s concern that U.S. missile defenses in the future could render the single-warhead arsenal impotent.

For example, a recently translated Chinese military report stated that U.S. plans to develop multiple kill vehicle anti-missile interceptors “poses a new threat to defense penetration by ballistic missiles.” The report called for increasing missile warhead penetration by using stealth warhead designs and adding warheads or dummy warheads that can confuse missile defense targeting sensors.

The Pentagon did not confirm the three flight tests publicly due to restrictions on discussing intelligence matters, a military spokesman said.

But a senior defense official said the tests aren’t “ringing alarm bells. And it’s not at all certain that … the Chinese have exactly perfected all of their missile technologies. That may explain some of the recent testing.”


It is not known if the three recent flight tests were successful, but officials said initial indications from sensors were that the missiles did not fail in flight.

A third U.S. official said the tests highlight China’s growing strategic missile arsenal, forces that remain shrouded in secrecy and appear to be moving in the direction of developing a “first strike” attack capability.

China officially has claimed its nuclear forces are mainly “second strike” weapons that would be used to respond to a nuclear attack on China.

China’s communist rulers have said China would not be the first to use nuclear weapons in a conflict.

However, that policy has been questioned by the Pentagon due to statements from Chinese military officials who have discussed the use of nuclear weapons against the United States that were not a response to a U.S. nuclear attack, such as long-range, precision, conventionally armed cruise missile strikes.

By contrast, defense officials have said unusual Air Force delays in conducting a U.S. strategic missile test is a sign that policy officials in the Obama administration may be putting off the missile tests for political, rather than technical, reasons.

A U.S. Minuteman III ICBM was set for earlier this year in California. But the test was delayed three times, ostensibly for technical and range safety concerns.

A defense official said political interference and concerns about Chinese and Russian reactions to the Minuteman test were behind the delays, not just the technical problems.

Spokesmen at the Air Force Global Strike Command, which is in charge of the Minuteman III test, disputed that political factors were behind the test delay and said technical and range safety issues were the reason. The missile test is now set for Nov. 14.

Russia, too, is building a new long-range missile and has not hesitated to carry out tests of both submarine-launched missiles, which have had problems, and a missile that Russian officials have said is designed to penetrate U.S. missile defenses.

The Chinese missile flight tests coincide with the visit to the Pentagon this week by Chinese Lt. Gen. Cai Yingting, deputy chief of the general staff of the Communist Party-controlled People’s Liberation Army, and four other generals. It could not be learned if Cai will be questioned on the missile tests during meetings with senior Army and defense leaders.

Analysts said the most recent ICBM test was significant.

“It is likely that a CSS-4 Mod 2 or DF-5 Mod 2 would be the same as the DF-5B, which was said to me in 2010 to be the multiple warhead version of the DF-5,” said Richard Fisher, a Chinese military affairs specialist.

“So it is possible that in just one month’s time the PLA has tested two new multiple warhead land-based ICBMs and one submarine launched SLBM that could eventually carry multiple warheads,” said Fisher, with the International Assessment and Strategy Center.

“At a minimum, the PLA wants to tell us that it will be pointing more nuclear warheads our way and faster.”

Hans M. Kristensen, director of the Nuclear Information Project at the private Federation of American Scientists, said the CSS-4 test indicates that the Chinese plan to keep their older, liquid-fueled missiles in the arsenal instead of replacing them with solid-fuel missiles that are more rapidly fired.

Kristensen also said the CSS-4 is a likely candidate for multiple warheads.

“The U.S. intelligence community has stated for more than a decade that China for years has had the capability to develop and deploy multiple warheads, if it decided to do so, and that the CSS-4 would be the most likely carrier,” he said.

“One of the factors that has the potential to trigger such a decision would be a U.S. missile defense system that, combined with advanced conventional strike capabilities, could weaken Chinese leaders confidence in the reliability of their retaliatory nuclear force,” Kristensen said.

China’s current deployment of mobile, more survivable DF-31 and DF-31A ICBMs “probably makes it less likely that China would see a need to deploy multiple warheads on their missiles, although deployment of penetration aids or decoys might be more likely,” he said.
 
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