China Ballistic Missiles and Nuclear Arms Thread

[Engineer]

When I mention laser ranging the moon I meant the ACCURACY required to paint such target, not the power. NASA didn't deploy a laser weapon to destroy mirrors on the moon LOL! If they can paint the miniscule mirrors on the moon with laser, the GaoFen satellites on geosynchronous orbit would be a piece of cake by comparison.

I perfectly understand what you meant, and I explained how your imagination differs from reality. First, I explained that the mirror on the moon is essentially a "fixed" target, whereas a satellite in GEO is not. Second, I explained how the distance involved reduces the power to nothing. Just because the laser in LLRE isn't a weapon, that doesn't mean the laser isn't powerful.

About the baffle on GF-4, most of the US laser weapon platforms are mobile right now, they can go directly to the position that's required to "dazzle" the satellite.

Except those lasers don't even come close to having the power to dazzle anything in the GEO, which is the central flaw in your argument.

Tracking is not a problem for the US arm forces - the NORAD is tracking every object as small as the size of a coin in the earth's orbit, while NASA (NASA Orbital Debris Program Office) is also doing the same with its own set of sensors and tracking stations around the world. The USN itself (and probably the USAF, and the Pentagon) also have their own seperate tracking stations (and ships) and sensors from their own departments.

The ability to track and the ability to dazzle something in GEO are not the same thing.

 

[Ultra]

I perfectly understand what you meant, and I explained how your imagination differs from reality. First, I explained that the mirror on the moon is essentially a "fixed" target, whereas a satellite in GEO is not. Second, I explained how the distance involved reduces the power to nothing. Just because the laser in LLRE isn't a weapon, that doesn't mean the laser isn't powerful.

Sorry could you explain to me how moon is a stationary target (which clearly it is not - moon doesn't stay in same place in the sky does it?) while a satellite in geosynchronous orbit (basically moves with earth and stays in the same place in the sky) isn't?

A satellite in geosynchronous orbit

Animation showing geostationary satellite orbiting the Earth. Since its orbital period is the same as the rotation rate of the Earth it appears stationary in the sky to ground observers.

In another word, if you are behind the laser targetting trigger the moon is the one that's actually moving thus not a stationary "fixed" target while GF-4 is a stationary target in the sky.

 

[Quickie]

When I mention laser ranging the moon I meant the ACCURACY required to paint such target, not the power. NASA didn't deploy a laser weapon to destroy mirrors on the moon LOL! If they can paint the miniscule mirrors on the moon with laser, the GaoFen satellites on geosynchronous orbit would be a piece of cake by comparison.

About the baffle on GF-4, most of the US laser weapon platforms are mobile right now, they can go directly to the position that's required to "dazzle" the satellite.

Tracking is not a problem for the US arm forces - the NORAD is tracking every object as small as the size of a coin in the earth's orbit, while NASA (NASA Orbital Debris Program Office) is also doing the same with its own set of sensors and tracking stations around the world. The USN itself (and probably the USAF, and the Pentagon) also have their own seperate tracking stations (and ships) and sensors from their own departments.

If I may add to the discussion, by the time a earth-based laser reaches the reflector on the moon surface, the laser beam would have spread out to a spot tens of kilometers across. In addition to that, the earth-based optical sensors have to be sensitive enough to detect the the whatever few photons that are reflected back from the reflector on the moon surface.

 

[Engineer]

Sorry could you explain to me how moon is a stationary target (which clearly it is not - moon doesn't stay in same place in the sky does it?) while a satellite in geosynchronous orbit (basically moves with earth and stays in the same place in the sky) isn't?

Animation showing geostationary satellite orbiting the Earth. Since its orbital period is the same as the rotation rate of the Earth it appears stationary in the sky to ground observers.

In another word, if you are behind the laser targetting trigger the moon is the one that's actually moving thus not a stationary "fixed" target while GF-4 is a stationary target in the sky.

If you have actually read my post, you wouldn't be asking me the above.

Note that I use quotation marks, as in "fixed", and never claimed the Moon as stationary. As explained in my first reply to you, the Moon's orbit is essentially constant. We know up to centimeters where the Moon is without needing to look at it. We can point a laser at the mirror on the moon and get a reflection, then repeat this feat again the next day, and the day after. That's the concept of "fixed" for you -- always getting the same result. We can't do the same with a laser for a GSO satellite.

Your animation betrayed you in that it oversimplifies things. First, the scale is wrong. If the camera aperture were to have the same size as a CD, that CD would be at the top of Big Ben in London, and you as the observer would be at top of the Empire State building. Secondly, the satellite is not stationary, but only seemingly so to a ground observer. In fact, a GSO is unstable by nature, and the satellite could drift over 100 km away from its registered location! That's why GEO satellites have to carry large fuel tanks for station keeping.

 

[lcloo]

China's Second Artillery is now officially renamed Rocket Force火箭军. Chinese President Xi Jing Ping officially announced the changes.


BEIJING, Jan. 1 (Xinhua) -- Chinese President Xi Jinping conferred military flags on the general command for the Army of the People's Liberation Army (PLA), the PLA Rocket Force and the PLA Strategic Support Force at their inauguration ceremony held Thursday in Beijing.

Xi said the move to form the PLA Army general command, the PLA Rocket Force and the PLA Strategic Support Force is a major decision by the Communist Party of China (CPC) Central Committee and the Central Military Commission (CMC) to realize the Chinese dream of a strong military, and a strategic step to establish a modern military system with Chinese characteristics.

It will be a milestone in the modernization of the Chinese military and will be recorded in the history of the people's armed forces, according to Xi, also general secretary of the CPC Central Committee and chairman of the CMC.

When congratulating the three forces, Xi urged them to follow the path of building a strong army with Chinese characteristics, always be ready to act in response to the call of the people and the Party, and make bigger contributions to achieving the Chinese dream of a strong military.

CMC Vice Chairman Fan Changlong announced the decision on leadership appointment for the three forces, which was endorsed by CMC Chairman Xi.

Li Zuocheng is the Commander of the PLA Army, and Liu Lei its political commissar. Wei Fenghe is the Commander of the PLA Rocket Force, and Wang Jiasheng its political commissar. Gao Jin is the Commander of the PLA Strategic Support Force, and Liu Fulian its political commissar.

Liu Lei, Wang Jiasheng and Liu Fulian, in their speeches delivered on behalf of their respective forces, vowed to follow the command of the CPC Central Committee, the CMC and Chairman Xi in all circumstances at any time, and honor their duties.

The ceremony was presided over by CMC Vice Chairman Xu Qiliang.

ROLES OF PLA ROCKET FORCE

Xi said the PLA Rocket Force is a "core force of strategic deterrence, a strategic buttress to the country's position as a major power, and an important building block in upholding national security."

Xi urged officers and soldiers of the PLA Rocket Force to understand the roles and tasks of the force, and to follow the requirement of maintaining both conventional and nuclear weaponry and the ability to deter and strike across the entire defense area.

Xi also called on the Rocket Force to enhance nuclear deterrence and counter-strike capacity which is credible and reliable, medium- and long-range precision strike ability, as well as strategic check-and-balance capacity to build a strong and modern Rocket Force.

PLA ARMY GENERAL COMMAND, PLA STRATEGIC SUPPORT FORCE SET UP

Noting that the PLA Army is the oldest force led and founded by the CPC, Xi praised its long history, tremendous military exploits and immortal deeds. "The PLA Army has played an irreplaceable role in defending national sovereignty, security and development interests," said Xi.

He called on army soldiers to embrace the honorable traditions, adapt to changing situations in the digital age and explore new patterns in land battles. The army needs to optimize its structure and composition, expedite its transformation from regional defense to universal fighting and build itself into a powerful modern land force.

A new force in safeguarding national security, the PLA Strategic Support Force represents "an important growth point" of the Chinese military in modern war, Xi said.

Xi urged the soldiers of the force to achieve leapfrogging development in key fields, set a high bar and strive to build a strong modern strategic support force.

GUIDELINE ON MILITARY REFORM RELEASED

The PLA Army general command, the PLA Rocket Force and the PLA Strategic Support Force were established against the backdrop of military structural reform in China.

The CMC has released a guideline on deepening national defense and military reform, about a month after CMC Chairman Xi Jinping called on a military administration and command system overhaul at a key meeting.

According to the guideline, a new structure will be established in which the CMC takes charge of the overall administration of the People's Liberation Army, the Chinese People's Armed Police and the militia and reserve forces, battle zone commands focus on combat preparedness, and various military services pursue development.

The overall goal is to achieve progress and concrete results before 2020 in military administration and joint operational command, optimizing military structure, enhancing policy systems and civilian-military integration, and building a modern military with Chinese characteristics that can win information age wars.

While 2015 was mainly devoted to the implementation of leadership management and joint operational command reform, the guideline said 2016 will see military cuts, improved combatant personnel and reform of military academies and armed police forces.

The reform will include cutting troops from 2.3 million to 2 million, phasing out outdated armaments, developing new weapons systems and reducing the size of the militia.

The move to deepen defense and military reform is aimed at breaking down systematic, structural and policy barriers, modernizing the organization of the military, and unleashing the combat capacity of the military.

It is also aimed at building a firm defense and strong military commensurate with China's international standing and interests in security and development.

 

[EdT586]

delete

 

[EdT586]

I wonder why they called it "rocket" instead of "missile", maybe less threatening ?

 

[no_name]

Maybe because they may perform more role than simply lobbing missiles, such as sending up replacement satellites etc.

I think the focus is on rocketry technology rather than more narrow missile tech.

 

[plawolf]

I wonder why they called it "rocket" instead of "missile", maybe less threatening ?

I think it's because of the massive amount of unguided or semi-guided rocket artillery the PLA has.

The rocket forces will likely take over responsibly for those (or at least the largest caliber versions of those rockets that have ranges in the hundreds of kms) as well as the guided cruise and ballistic missiles, so it's most appropriate to call it 'rocket' forces rather than 'guided bomb' (literal Chinese translation for missile) forces, which would implicitly exclude all the guided stuff.

 

[Ultra]

China's Second Artillery is now officially renamed Rocket Force火箭军. Chinese President Xi Jing Ping officially announced the changes.


BEIJING, Jan. 1 (Xinhua) -- Chinese President Xi Jinping conferred military flags on the general command for the Army of the People's Liberation Army (PLA), the PLA Rocket Force and the PLA Strategic Support Force at their inauguration ceremony held Thursday in Beijing.

Xi said the move to form the PLA Army general command, the PLA Rocket Force and the PLA Strategic Support Force is a major decision by the Communist Party of China (CPC) Central Committee and the Central Military Commission (CMC) to realize the Chinese dream of a strong military, and a strategic step to establish a modern military system with Chinese characteristics.
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I don't understand why China follow the USSR/Russian model of having a seperate "Strategic Missile Troops or Strategic Rocket Forces" branch instead of the western model of having strategic nuclear force in every arm forces branch (eg. Air Force, Navy, and Army)? Isn't it better to have each branch in control of of their own nuclear weapon creates more redunency and thus survivability?


Let's say if an OpFor found a loophole in the chain of commands of PLA Rocket Force and exploits it, and because it is its own military branch it could theoretically nullify China's nuclear security completely.

On the other hand US's nuclear arsenal are spread out across arm services with each branch having its unique command structure and each can operate as a self-containing unit without the need for other services. This meant it is much harder to exploit loopholes in their chain of commands as each branch is unique and self containing.