Chengdu next gen combat aircraft (?J-36) thread

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
China doesn't really need a "penetrating stand-in" aircraft
If anything they need it more than US. US is only fighting to take over Taiwan and maybe NK. China is fighting to have back all its former lost colonies in greater Asia.

Sure, PLAAF doesn't need to overcome the same type of absurdly stacked defenses China has over Taiwan or within the 1IC, but they need to consistently raid and conduct sead in airspaces like Philippines, Indochina, Japan etc. And while say Philippines have nearly no air defenses, with US lend leasing to them, they can reach fairly respectable, maybe Iran tiers of air defense during an actual conflict.
 

bsdnf

New Member
Registered Member
China doesn't really need a "penetrating stand-in" aircraft

Repost below from the Shenyang thread

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Doctrinally, I don't think there is a Chinese requirement for "Penetrating"

The US is operating with the geographical reality that China has many more airbases (150+ in mainland China) and tactical aircraft (2000) available in the Western Pacific. In comparison, the US realistically has access to about 10 airbases in Japan and 1 in Guam. Then there's a few mobile airbases in the form of aircraft carriers, plus a few more scattered, distant bases in Alaska, Hawaii and Australia.

So the US side faces the problem of being at a very large disadvantage in terms of numbers and can't suppress enough Chinese airbases.

Hence the US requirement Penetrating Counter Air (PCA) and Penetrating Long Range Strike (PLRS).

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In comparison,

The Chinese have a significant advantage in the number of aircraft available in the Western Pacific. And because there are so few airbases available to the US, the Chinese can aim for outright air superiority and taking out all opposing airbases in the Western Pacific. Also note that all the potential US airbases are on small isolated islands in the Western Pacific that can be subjected to an air-sea blockade. I would even include the Japanese Home Islands in this category.

1. In terms of air-superiority munitions, the standard AAM is the dual-pulse PL-15 with a listed range of up to 200km. So there is no need for a Chinese fighter aircraft to ever overfly a hostile landmass to shoot down an opposing aircraft.

2. In terms of land-attack munitions, it looks like every conceivable land target in the Western Pacific can be reached by low-cost glide bombs with a 100km range. So again, there is no need for Chinese aircraft to overfly a hostile landmass.

Also note that all of the First Island Chain lies at most 1300km from mainland Chinese territory. That is within range of Tomahawk-class cruise missiles and large numbers of low-cost piston-engine cruise missiles launched from trucks on mainland China. And as they say, the best time to shoot down an aircraft is when it is on the ground.

In the Second Island Chain, if we have J-36s conducting air superiority missions and conducting daily attacks on Guam, then the airbase won't be functional and Guam itself would be under blockade.
No, PCA is still the core ability of J-36, and the paper of the director of 611 Institute has made this clear. PLA cannot rely solely on the Rocket Force to complete the suppression of 2IC, and the Air Force cannot wait until the 1IC is completely suppressed before expanding the A2/AD circle and fighting against 2IC from the perspective of situational awareness and strike capability. J-36 will be responsible for breaking through 1IC from D-Day 1 and preventing the US Air Force's important assets in 2IC (such as long-range bombers and early warning aircraft) from being put into combat. In this case, not only is the PL-15 insufficient, but even the PL-17 can barely meet the demand.

Many people think that the war in the Western Pacific is too mild, and that the PLA is too conservative and restrained. No, the more US assets that can be put into battle in the 2IC, the more risks there are to landing fleets and coastal air defense. The PLA will not keep its strike capabilities (whether against land, sea or air) within the first island chain, nor will it systematically remove US military bases one by one.
 
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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Sure, PLAAF doesn't need to overcome the same type of absurdly stacked defenses China has over Taiwan or within the 1IC, but they need to consistently raid and conduct sead in airspaces like Philippines, Indochina, Japan etc. And while say Philippines have nearly no air defenses, with US lend leasing to them, they can reach fairly respectable, maybe Iran tiers of air defense during an actual conflict.

On "consistently raid and conduct sead in airspaces like Philippines, Indochina, Japan etc"

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My point is that Chinese aircraft can actually use standoff weapons to do this.

The HARM is listed with a 150-300km range these days. It means Chinese aircraft can launch these over water and still hit every target in the 1IC. The PL-15 and PL-17 have even greater ranges.

Sure, being able to penetrate enemy airspace is a great capability to have.

But do you really want to risk a J-36 like this?

And as long as you have enough J-36, it's better to spam missiles at long-range than risk getting too close.
 

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
My point is that Chinese aircraft can actually use standoff weapons to do this.

The HARM is listed with a 150-300km range these days. It means Chinese aircraft can launch these over water and still hit every target in the 1IC. The PL-15 and PL-17 have even greater ranges.
Stand off weapons need targets, and their range isn't endless. J-36 is exactly the means to find(and prosecute) those targets in enemy rear.
Sure, being able to penetrate enemy airspace is a great capability to have.

But do you really want to risk a J-36 like this?
Why you build it if you don't?
That's the question that apparently killed NGAD-1, by the way.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
No, PCA is still the core ability of J-36, and the paper of the director of 611 Institute has made this clear. PLA cannot rely solely on the Rocket Force to complete the suppression of 2IC, and the Air Force cannot wait until the 1IC is completely suppressed before expanding the A2/AD circle and fighting against 2IC from the perspective of situational awareness and strike capability. J-36 will be responsible for breaking through 1IC from D-Day 1 and preventing the US Air Force's important assets in 2IC (such as long-range bombers and early warning aircraft) from being put into combat. In this case, not only is the PL-15 insufficient, but even the PL-17 can barely meet the demand.

My expectation is that by 2035, the 300km gap in Bashi Straits will be cleared within the first 2 hours.
That will allow the J-36 to pass through to Guam.

It's important to note that it isn't the J-36 doing the suppression of the 1IC and clearing the airspace
It is the rest of the Air Force and Rocket Force.

The J-36 spends its time crossing open empty waters until it reaches Guam.
 

phrozenflame

Junior Member
Registered Member
On "consistently raid and conduct sead in airspaces like Philippines, Indochina, Japan etc"

---

My point is that Chinese aircraft can actually use standoff weapons to do this.

The HARM is listed with a 150-300km range these days. It means Chinese aircraft can launch these over water and still hit every target in the 1IC. The PL-15 and PL-17 have even greater ranges.

Sure, being able to penetrate enemy airspace is a great capability to have.

But do you really want to risk a J-36 like this?

And as long as you have enough J-36, it's better to spam missiles at long-range than risk getting too close.
Tbh, wont be surprising if by the time J-36 comes online, China has 100s of 1000s of disposable, decently cheap, *Stealthy* and *smart* Gerans with burst of speed during terminal phase.

I personally feel China is pretty confident in its pipeline about knocking every threat out of 1IC.

Now, we're not talking about wether rebels in Taiwan can be forced to end the conflict and re-unite.

I feel, China wants to do it in such a manner that whoever tries to interfere in this internal conflict, they're smashed so comprehensively that it brings about a global paradigm change in international order and the next day, world is completely different as we know it.

This Taiwan thing imo will become a side quest as far as military aspect is concerned. There are bigger geopolitical goals that can be had. In a decade or two, Taiwan instead of being a geopolitical liability, can become a bait, converting it into geopolitical asset.

Next 5-10 years will be critical on how the dominoes fall, with time and inertia on China's side. I think US's optimal window of oppurtunity was day before yesterday and that oppurtunity is closing really fast.

All in all, I do hope, whatever happens can happen organically and without any shooting wars. War is bad for everyone, id be happy to pay dirt cheap $ or Yens on next gen electronic devices and equipment borne out of ultra competitive markets rather than pay crazy premiums due to protectionism :D.

Edit: and we can all fuck off to Mars and leave Elon there lol.

A healthy competition will be a win for humanity.
 
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