Chengdu next gen combat aircraft (?J-36) thread

[styx]

Who are these guys? What did they say? What's their background? Is this just two clowns gossiping or are they serious analysts? Could you also translate their sign language for us?

they are a military historian and an aviation expert, striving to remain impartial, and they succeed much better in this than the average American channel. I consider the analyses of the war in Ukraine by this channel to be the best globally. They are two-hour live sessions featuring contributions from retired Italian generals and experts from various fields. To get a sense of it, you can use YouTube's automatic translation into English. The gist is that very little is known about the new Chinese aircraft, and in any case, they represent a serious blow to the presumed American air superiority.

 

[BillRamengod]

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Xiaohongshu model artist @

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build a Fully Detailed Interior Model of j-36 he conjectured for his 1/72 program.







I think his assumption about the existence of a side bay capable of accommodating a PL-10 is a bit of a stretch. But who knows.

 

[styx]

they are a military historian and an aviation expert, striving to remain impartial, and they succeed much better in this than the average American channel. I consider the analyses of the war in Ukraine by this channel to be the best globally. They are two-hour live sessions featuring contributions from retired Italian generals and experts from various fields. To get a sense of it, you can use YouTube's automatic translation into English. The gist is that very little is known about the new Chinese aircraft, and in any case, they represent a serious blow to the presumed American air superiority.

They say that the J-36 is more similar to the F-14 Tornado ADV than to the F-22, describing it as a sort of large patrol fighter designed for use over the sea.

 

[HardBall]

They say that the J-36 is more similar to the F-14 Tornado ADV than to the F-22, describing it as a sort of large patrol fighter designed for use over the sea.

Not a perfect comparison, but close enough.

F-14 at the time was the platform par exellence with the large radar and (for the time) very long range AIM-54, when you compare it to all its comtemporaries. If J-36 turns out to be what we expect operationally, then the biggest part of its role would be the same.

 

[BoraTas]

They say that the J-36 is more similar to the F-14 Tornado ADV than to the F-22, describing it as a sort of large patrol fighter designed for use over the sea.

Not a perfect comparison, but close enough.

F-14 at the time was the platform par exellence with the large radar and (for the time) very long range AIM-54, when you compare it to all its comtemporaries. If J-36 turns out to be what we expect operationally, then the biggest part of its role would be the same.

What I observe is American observers have an aversion to accept new Chinese aircraft as fighters. We had the same with the J-20 too. Almost for 10 years they argued it was just an interceptor.

 

[styx]

What I observe is American observers have an aversion to accept new Chinese aircraft as fighters. We had the same with the J-20 too. Almost for 10 years they argued it was just an interceptor.

Regarding the J-20, I have always maintained that it is a supermaneuverable air superiority fighter (though not as much as the F-22 or Su-57) ever since the first prototype was unveiled. As for the J-36, I really struggle to see it as a supermaneuverable fighter of that kind. It strikes me more as a stealth patrol aircraft with some degree of maneuverability (at best comparable to the F-15, but that's pushing it), closer to something like the F-14. The fact that it is stealthy, combined with today's highly lethal beyond-visual-range air-to-air missiles, makes it an extremely formidable platform for the U.S. to contend with. Additionally, the two Italian analysts are well aware that the U.S. will struggle to keep up, given the higher industrial costs they bear (significantly higher than China's) and their now uncontrollable public debt. One of them even goes so far as to suggest a strategic provocation by China, akin to the SDI (Strategic Defense Initiative) of the 1980s, to bring America to its knees.

 

[Schwerter_]

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Xiaohongshu model artist @

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build a Fully Detailed Interior Model of j-36 he conjectured for his 1/72 program.


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I think his assumption about the existence of a side bay capable of accommodating a PL-10 is a bit of a stretch. But who knows.

Not to diss on his/her efforts because this is amazing work, but for whatever reason I find it extremely amusing that the engines are just generic small-bpr afterburning turbofans with CD nozzles stuck straight into the fuselage. Im sure it’s for size referencing stuff but man that’s some F/B-23 level shit right there xd

 

[HardBall]

What I observe is American observers have an aversion to accept new Chinese aircraft as fighters. We had the same with the J-20 too. Almost for 10 years they argued it was just an interceptor.

I don't know about American observers. But just looking at the next generation of platforms, as WVR contacts get rarer and rarer for at least peer to peer conflicts, that distinction will no longer be useful at some point. That type of usage in terms of strict classification of aircraft after the 90s basically is already dubious.

If the current trend holds, for 2040s and beyond a majority of the engagement will be BVR, and perhaps even outside of the range of onboard sensors (one of the reasons why loyal wingmen would become important). Long gone are the days when you had delineations of fighter types like superiority fighter, interceptor, escorts, etc. The last time those things really were front and center were in the 60s, time of the century series, and airframes like Mig-21, Mig-23, Su-15, etc.

 

[jnd85]

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build a Fully Detailed Interior Model of j-36 he conjectured for his 1/72 program.


View attachment 144370
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I think his assumption about the existence of a side bay capable of accommodating a PL-10 is a bit of a stretch. But who knows.

Just a note: regardless of whether these renders are accurate or not, how long has it been since we have seen so many innovative solutions bundled together into one aircraft? I can't even recall the last time my imagination has not been so fully captured by a piece of equipment.

The reason everyone is so obsessed with this plane is because it begs the question, what is the problem all of these unusual design elements are trying to address? Every tool is designed with a function in mind, and that's why after seeing this creature it is all anyone has been able to think about since it was unveiled last month.

One other note is that design typically is very iterative, so performance of each new element can be assessed independantly. That's why so many other countries' next gen fighters generally look so similar. It's not so much that they are copying each other, as that combination of design elements all tend to work very well - like how all cars have four wheels.

This strange beast on the other hand... I think we may only really know what it is supposed to do once we see it in use. One thing is certain - there was no shortage of bravery in rolling it out. No, not the slightest hint of conservatism to be seen. That speaks to the psychology of the designers - confidence.

 

[BoraTas]

Regarding the J-20, I have always maintained that it is a supermaneuverable air superiority fighter (though not as much as the F-22 or Su-57) ever since the first prototype was unveiled. As for the J-36, I really struggle to see it as a supermaneuverable fighter of that kind. It strikes me more as a stealth patrol aircraft with some degree of maneuverability (at best comparable to the F-15, but that's pushing it), closer to something like the F-14. The fact that it is stealthy, combined with today's highly lethal beyond-visual-range air-to-air missiles, makes it an extremely formidable platform for the U.S. to contend with. Additionally, the two Italian analysts are well aware that the U.S. will struggle to keep up, given the higher industrial costs they bear (significantly higher than China's) and their now uncontrollable public debt. One of them even goes so far as to suggest a strategic provocation by China, akin to the SDI (Strategic Defense Initiative) of the 1980s, to bring America to its knees.

I believe the J-36 is maneuverable in a newer way. It is going to have a lot of thrust both in absolute terms and for its weight. Its wings are huge even for its weight too. It also has ventral inlets, (seemingly) thrust vectoring, 10 sophisticated control surfaces and a huge LERX. All of these features are liabilities to cost, internal free volume, range and probably RCS. If the aircraft was really designed with no kinematic performance requirements, none of these features would exist on it.

What kind of kinematics would be important in this era? Traditional WVR related ones like roll rate, yaw rate, max-AoA, low speed instantaneous turn are probably not very important anymore. These are important if the relative angles are changing fast which happens only if the objects are close to each other. I guess maximising the aircraft energy over longer time periods would have its uses. Being able to rapidly accelerate and cruise efficiently between M1.0 and M2.0 and being able to climb rapidly would maximise the AAM effective range and shrink the effective ranges of enemy AAMs. Having good sustained turns in the supersonic regime would further add to these advantages. I guess these traits are what were prioritized for the J-36.