Chengdu next gen combat aircraft (?J-36) thread

iBBz

Junior Member
Registered Member
No, that's the exact problem with the B-21. A very capable but subsonic platform in a Pacific environment means that your transit times go way up, your sortie generation goes way down, and you're banking everything on active/passive countermeasures because you have zero ability to run away. Also, any munitions you launch will be slower from the start.

Obviously there are upsides too, especially w.r.t. range, capacity, and loitering time. But the downsides are significant.
The "running away" concept is highly overrated here, especially when the B-21 is going to be cruising at around M0.9-0.95 and the J-36 would cross transonic and cruise there M1.2 to M1.3 at best. It might be able to do M1.6-1.7, but at that speed, it will become a low range garage queen that needs too much maintenance for high sortie rates. If you are basing these assumptions on the false belief that the J-36 will be a M2-3+ aircraft which seems to be a common trend on this thread, then I'm sorry to disappoint you, but that will never happen. The J-36 does not display the important fundamentals of a high speed aircraft. It is not a low aspect ratio or a high fineness ratio aircraft, length equal to or less than the wingspan, has three individual intakes, one likely to be a DSI, no vertical stabs or ventral fins, a very thick fuselage starting right from the nose, a flying wing/bwb, and its parasitic drag will climb too fast for it to reach these speeds.


Way too many people here seem to think that the three engine configuration will just magically propel the J-36 to higher speeds, underestimating drag as some minor opposing force that can simply be overcome with extra thrust. Even bpr is being disregarded and it is being assumed that 3xWS-15s will do the job. If adding thrust was the main limiting factor, all planes today would be travelling at high supersonic speeds.


Anyone who doubts this should spend some time researching high speed planes such as the XB-70, SR-71, Concord, MiG-31, Tu-144, X-15 etc.. You will quickly come to the realization that each of these designs give so much away for a drop of return in speed gain. The XB-70 has 6 turbojets (no bp), an aspect ratio of 1.751 that is then trimmed down to 0.766 with the folding tips, a ridiculously high fineness ratio as you can see from its shape and length, a flush cockpit, has titanium all over its leading edges and high temperature areas, just like all other high Mach planes. Despite all these features, the plane only does M3 and needs a mind blowing 140 tons of fuel for a combat range of less than 7000km.


I have even seen comments regarding how the J-36 looks like an efficient glider, implying that it generates lift efficiently and so has lower drag because of that and because of the fact that it has no vertical bodies. Have you ever seen a glider flying at Mach 1+? Take a quick look at lift induced drag equations. Lift induced drag is directly proportional to the square of lift, inversely proportional to the airspeed velocity squared and the wingspan squared. The coefficient of lift induced drag is inversely proportional to the square of the velocity. The coefficient of lift induced drag goes down as the angle of attack decreases with the increase of speeds. This is why lift induced drag does not matter for high speed aircraft. It goes down as the plane goes faster. Where the real problems start is with parasitic drag, because whereas lift induced drag is inversely proportional to the velocity squared, other types of drag are directly proportional to the velocity squared, hence this very famous drag photo that you see in drag related books and publications:

The-two-main-components-of-drag-induced-and-parasitic-plotted-against-freestream-1614362624.png


Once we enter the transonic/supersonic regions, we start to run into compressibility drag related issues and shock waves, and those are a whole nother story. This is why all these planes share the same design philosophy of thin long fuselages and noses with tiny, thin and highly swept wings that are pushed as far back as possible.


The only plane that stands out in this crowd in terms of long and thin fuselages, is the Mig-31, which tries really hard to conform to these rules, but it is too small and needs some maneuverability and pitching moment to intercept and carry armament. Despite that, it still has 3.5 tons of titanium, razor sharp swept wings and horizontal stabs, a small wingspan and very large highly swept vertical stabs, and its wings are so swept and small, it needs wing fences to land and take off. It has a combat range of only 720km at around M2.35. How far do you reckon it would go at its max M2.8, 300km? That is only enough for it to climb up, reach that speed, then glide back down to land.


Neither the B-21 nor the J-36 will ever see combat in highly contested airspace and both will be using standoff weapons launched from safe distances. If either were to ever be spotted, locked on, and fired upon with missiles that travel at at least M5+, they are both going to have to rely on literally anything but running away.


In the case of the J-36, it will have a significantly higher chance of draining incoming missile energies, not due to higher speeds, but due to its high thrust and ability to maneuver/dive quickly compared to the high moment of inertia and low pitching moment B-21, but the B-21 is strategic bomber with far better VLO features, and will be able to carry larger payloads in terms of mass and volume. These payloads can still have longer even if their initial launch velocities provided to them by their B-21 were lower than the J-36. Each of these two bring their own game to the table, but neither are disadvantaged in their own domains.
 

Wrought

Junior Member
Registered Member
The "running away" concept is highly overrated here, especially when the B-21 is going to be cruising at around M0.9-0.95 and the J-36 would cross transonic and cruise there M1.2 to M1.3 at best. It might be able to do M1.6-1.7, but at that speed, it will become a low range garage queen that needs too much maintenance for high sortie rates. If you are basing these assumptions on the false belief that the J-36 will be a M2-3+ aircraft which seems to be a common trend on this thread, then I'm sorry to disappoint you, but that will never happen. The J-36 does not display the important fundamentals of a high speed aircraft. It is not a low aspect ratio or a high fineness ratio aircraft, length equal to or less than the wingspan, has three individual intakes, one likely to be a DSI, no vertical stabs or ventral fins, a very thick fuselage starting right from the nose, a flying wing/bwb, and its parasitic drag will climb too fast for it to reach these speeds.


Way too many people here seem to think that the three engine configuration will just magically propel the J-36 to higher speeds, underestimating drag as some minor opposing force that can simply be overcome with extra thrust. Even bpr is being disregarded and it is being assumed that 3xWS-15s will do the job. If adding thrust was the main limiting factor, all planes today would be travelling at high supersonic speeds.


Anyone who doubts this should spend some time researching high speed planes such as the XB-70, SR-71, Concord, MiG-31, Tu-144, X-15 etc.. You will quickly come to the realization that each of these designs give so much away for a drop of return in speed gain. The XB-70 has 6 turbojets (no bp), an aspect ratio of 1.751 that is then trimmed down to 0.766 with the folding tips, a ridiculously high fineness ratio as you can see from its shape and length, a flush cockpit, has titanium all over its leading edges and high temperature areas, just like all other high Mach planes. Despite all these features, the plane only does M3 and needs a mind blowing 140 tons of fuel for a combat range of less than 7000km.


I have even seen comments regarding how the J-36 looks like an efficient glider, implying that it generates lift efficiently and so has lower drag because of that and because of the fact that it has no vertical bodies. Have you ever seen a glider flying at Mach 1+? Take a quick look at lift induced drag equations. Lift induced drag is directly proportional to the square of lift, inversely proportional to the airspeed velocity squared and the wingspan squared. The coefficient of lift induced drag is inversely proportional to the square of the velocity. The coefficient of lift induced drag goes down as the angle of attack decreases with the increase of speeds. This is why lift induced drag does not matter for high speed aircraft. It goes down as the plane goes faster. Where the real problems start is with parasitic drag, because whereas lift induced drag is inversely proportional to the velocity squared, other types of drag are directly proportional to the velocity squared, hence this very famous drag photo that you see in drag related books and publications:

View attachment 144389


Once we enter the transonic/supersonic regions, we start to run into compressibility drag related issues and shock waves, and those are a whole nother story. This is why all these planes share the same design philosophy of thin long fuselages and noses with tiny, thin and highly swept wings that are pushed as far back as possible.


The only plane that stands out in this crowd in terms of long and thin fuselages, is the Mig-31, which tries really hard to conform to these rules, but it is too small and needs some maneuverability and pitching moment to intercept and carry armament. Despite that, it still has 3.5 tons of titanium, razor sharp swept wings and horizontal stabs, a small wingspan and very large highly swept vertical stabs, and its wings are so swept and small, it needs wing fences to land and take off. It has a combat range of only 720km at around M2.35. How far do you reckon it would go at its max M2.8, 300km? That is only enough for it to climb up, reach that speed, then glide back down to land.


Neither the B-21 nor the J-36 will ever see combat in highly contested airspace and both will be using standoff weapons launched from safe distances. If either were to ever be spotted, locked on, and fired upon with missiles that travel at at least M5+, they are both going to have to rely on literally anything but running away.


In the case of the J-36, it will have a significantly higher chance of draining incoming missile energies, not due to higher speeds, but due to its high thrust and ability to maneuver/dive quickly compared to the high moment of inertia and low pitching moment B-21, but the B-21 is strategic bomber with far better VLO features, and will be able to carry larger payloads in terms of mass and volume. These payloads can still have longer even if their initial launch velocities provided to them by their B-21 were lower than the J-36. Each of these two bring their own game to the table, but neither are disadvantaged in their own domains.

That's an awful lot of words to address a lot of stuff which I never said.

With particular regard to running away, I was referencing J-36 with afterburners vs B-21 without.
 

BoraTas

Major
Registered Member
Way too many people here seem to think that the three engine configuration will just magically propel the J-36 to higher speeds, underestimating drag as some minor opposing force that can simply be overcome with extra thrust. Even bpr is being disregarded and it is being assumed that 3xWS-15s will do the job. If adding thrust was the main limiting factor, all planes today would be travelling at high supersonic speeds.
We do not assume a high cruise speed because of magic. We assume it because three WS-15s mean 50 tonnes of thrust from a modern 21st century low-bypass turbofan. This amount of thrust is about 70% of what the XB-70 had, and the XB-70 had a MTOW of 245 tonnes... The turbojets of old didn't have a good thrust scaling either. Their turbine inlet temperatures and compressor aerodynamics were horrid for today's standards. The F-15 was faster than the B-58 Hustler despite its higher aspect ratio and less swept wings and the use of turbofans instead of turbojets. The F-15, being a 4th gen fighter, wasn't designed around drag minimization either, unlike the B-58. The F-22 does go above M1.5 even without afterburners.
Neither the B-21 nor the J-36 will ever see combat in highly contested airspace and both will be using standoff weapons launched from safe distances. If either were to ever be spotted, locked on, and fired upon with missiles that travel at at least M5+, they are both going to have to rely on literally anything but running away.
Both aircraft are designed to operate in highly contested airspace. It is why both have very expensive survivability features, VLO design being the most significant of these. AAMs do not stay at M5+ either. They rapidly lose speed especially if they are forced to maneuver.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
I believe the J-36 is maneuverable in a newer way. It is going to have a lot of thrust both in absolute terms and for its weight. Its wings are huge even for its weight too. It also has ventral inlets, (seemingly) thrust vectoring, 10 sophisticated control surfaces and a huge LERX. All of these features are liabilities to cost, internal free volume, range and probably RCS. If the aircraft was really designed with no kinematic performance requirements, none of these features would exist on it.

What kind of kinematics would be important in this era? Traditional WVR related ones like roll rate, yaw rate, max-AoA, low speed instantaneous turn are probably not very important anymore. These are important if the relative angles are changing fast which happens only if the objects are close to each other. I guess maximising the aircraft energy over longer time periods would have its uses. Being able to rapidly accelerate and cruise efficiently between M1.0 and M2.0 and being able to climb rapidly would maximise the AAM effective range and shrink the effective ranges of enemy AAMs. Having good sustained turns in the supersonic regime would further add to these advantages. I guess these traits are what were prioritized for the J-36.
He gets it.

Knife fighter vs spear fighter is the analogy people need to be thinking about. Former requires good angular displacement rate. Latter requires good spatial displacement rate. Gs are still important but you have to do it while maintaining speed and altitude now. Think total area change in the maneuver vector rather than just rotational rate.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
The "running away" concept is highly overrated here, especially when the B-21 is going to be cruising at around M0.9-0.95 and the J-36 would cross transonic and cruise there M1.2 to M1.3 at best. It might be able to do M1.6-1.7, but at that speed, it will become a low range garage queen that needs too much maintenance for high sortie rates. If you are basing these assumptions on the false belief that the J-36 will be a M2-3+ aircraft which seems to be a common trend on this thread, then I'm sorry to disappoint you, but that will never happen. The J-36 does not display the important fundamentals of a high speed aircraft. It is not a low aspect ratio or a high fineness ratio aircraft, length equal to or less than the wingspan, has three individual intakes, one likely to be a DSI, no vertical stabs or ventral fins, a very thick fuselage starting right from the nose, a flying wing/bwb, and its parasitic drag will climb too fast for it to reach these speeds.


Way too many people here seem to think that the three engine configuration will just magically propel the J-36 to higher speeds, underestimating drag as some minor opposing force that can simply be overcome with extra thrust. Even bpr is being disregarded and it is being assumed that 3xWS-15s will do the job. If adding thrust was the main limiting factor, all planes today would be travelling at high supersonic speeds.


Anyone who doubts this should spend some time researching high speed planes such as the XB-70, SR-71, Concord, MiG-31, Tu-144, X-15 etc.. You will quickly come to the realization that each of these designs give so much away for a drop of return in speed gain. The XB-70 has 6 turbojets (no bp), an aspect ratio of 1.751 that is then trimmed down to 0.766 with the folding tips, a ridiculously high fineness ratio as you can see from its shape and length, a flush cockpit, has titanium all over its leading edges and high temperature areas, just like all other high Mach planes. Despite all these features, the plane only does M3 and needs a mind blowing 140 tons of fuel for a combat range of less than 7000km.


I have even seen comments regarding how the J-36 looks like an efficient glider, implying that it generates lift efficiently and so has lower drag because of that and because of the fact that it has no vertical bodies. Have you ever seen a glider flying at Mach 1+? Take a quick look at lift induced drag equations. Lift induced drag is directly proportional to the square of lift, inversely proportional to the airspeed velocity squared and the wingspan squared. The coefficient of lift induced drag is inversely proportional to the square of the velocity. The coefficient of lift induced drag goes down as the angle of attack decreases with the increase of speeds. This is why lift induced drag does not matter for high speed aircraft. It goes down as the plane goes faster. Where the real problems start is with parasitic drag, because whereas lift induced drag is inversely proportional to the velocity squared, other types of drag are directly proportional to the velocity squared, hence this very famous drag photo that you see in drag related books and publications:

View attachment 144389


Once we enter the transonic/supersonic regions, we start to run into compressibility drag related issues and shock waves, and those are a whole nother story. This is why all these planes share the same design philosophy of thin long fuselages and noses with tiny, thin and highly swept wings that are pushed as far back as possible.


The only plane that stands out in this crowd in terms of long and thin fuselages, is the Mig-31, which tries really hard to conform to these rules, but it is too small and needs some maneuverability and pitching moment to intercept and carry armament. Despite that, it still has 3.5 tons of titanium, razor sharp swept wings and horizontal stabs, a small wingspan and very large highly swept vertical stabs, and its wings are so swept and small, it needs wing fences to land and take off. It has a combat range of only 720km at around M2.35. How far do you reckon it would go at its max M2.8, 300km? That is only enough for it to climb up, reach that speed, then glide back down to land.


Neither the B-21 nor the J-36 will ever see combat in highly contested airspace and both will be using standoff weapons launched from safe distances. If either were to ever be spotted, locked on, and fired upon with missiles that travel at at least M5+, they are both going to have to rely on literally anything but running away.


In the case of the J-36, it will have a significantly higher chance of draining incoming missile energies, not due to higher speeds, but due to its high thrust and ability to maneuver/dive quickly compared to the high moment of inertia and low pitching moment B-21, but the B-21 is strategic bomber with far better VLO features, and will be able to carry larger payloads in terms of mass and volume. These payloads can still have longer even if their initial launch velocities provided to them by their B-21 were lower than the J-36. Each of these two bring their own game to the table, but neither are disadvantaged in their own domains.

This is a lot of words for someone who doesn’t have any access to real specs or a wind tunnel. Drag is not something you can eyeball and if weight was supposed to prevent high energy maneuvering there would be no point to a third engine.

Also the concept isn’t “running away”. Think less in dimensionless words and thinking more in terms of 3D spatial interactions. You can outrun a missile or out-turn a missile or out-altitude a missile, *or* you can realize these don’t have to be mutually exclusive maneuvers and you can do a combination of all 3, if your combined aerodynamics and engine power allow it that is. Try to think in higher concepts…
 

EmoBirb

New Member
Registered Member
It is going to have a lot of thrust both in absolute terms and for its weight. Its wings are huge even for its weight too. It also has ventral inlets, (seemingly) thrust vectoring, 10 sophisticated control surfaces and a huge LERX. All of these features are liabilities to cost, internal free volume, range and probably RCS. If the aircraft was really designed with no kinematic performance requirements, none of these features would exist on it.

I don't think that's the case. These control surfaces are most likely absolutely necessary to keep this large, tailless fighter even in the air, especially when going supersonic. Thrust vectoring? Same thing. In fact I would see a case in favor of low observability here, to minimize use of the control surfaces in regular flight regimes.

That thing will probably very heavy and it's fairly big too. While undoubtedly a fighter, I think it's an incredible stretch to attribute any form of exceptional maneuverability to. Just based on the fact that it has plenty of control surfaces, again probably absolutely necessary for a supersonic tailless design.
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
I'm no aerodynamics expert, but I always thought maneuverability was a matter of T:W ratio and wing loading. According to my admittedly basic gorilla math if you have more weight but introduce more thrust (i.e. 3rd engine), what's to keep this J-36 from being as maneuverable as any other smaller fighter??
 

charles18

Junior Member
Registered Member
This is a lot of words for someone who doesn’t have any access to real specs or a wind tunnel.
There are two types of people with opinions on the internet:
1) Confidence is proportional to quantity of information
2) Confidence is inversely proportional to quantity of information

I think iBBz falls into category 2)
He speaks with a high level of confidence yet the only information we have to go by is a short video clip of a flying aircraft shaped like a Dorito chip.
I don't think we have enough information to speak with confidence yet, just my 2 cents
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
I'm no aerodynamics expert, but I always thought maneuverability was a matter of T:W ratio and wing loading. According to my admittedly basic gorilla math if you have more weight but introduce more thrust (i.e. 3rd engine), what's to keep this J-36 from being as maneuverable as any other smaller fighter??

Size and presence of control surfaces. The J-36 is unlikely to be a turn and burn agile fighter matching the turning performances of 4th or 5th gen fighters. That doesn't seem to be the role of this platform at all. More a consequence of the evolution of technology leading air warfare into a different direction. The focus seems to be on unmanned platforms, higher energy weapons, electronic warfare, sensors and sensor fusion. All this being taken to a higher level demands more effective computing and associated hardware. This is exposed in part by the presence of that third engine.

I still maintain that kinematic performance is important for a 6th gen. Rather than turning performance, the emphasis because range and loiter time (very similar attributes with huge overlap). My belief is that J-36 still places emphasis on speed and altitude. iBBz disagrees with the speed part. Supercruise is a given. PLAAF will laugh CAC out of the room if supercruise isn't on the table. It's just that recently fanboys have been talking about Mach 3 top speed and Mach 2+ supercruise. These are certainly unknowns and would be amazing to have. Is it truly within the design criteria though? We won't know until after service is reached.

Would be pretty amazing if the J-36 can hit Mach 3 indeed. The aspect ratio suggests no. Supercruise would be a bare minimum to participate. Mach 2+ top speed would be a bare requirement if I were the PLAAF. Just to keep up with J-20, J-35, J-16 and next gen CCAs this thing need to supercruise and just to be considered as next generation, it needs top speed at least as good as those three manned fighters. Yes J-36's role is different to the J-50's which appears to be more kinematically focused compared to the J-36's EW, sensor and command focused role. Both display greater all aspect stealth as part of being a leap from J-20 and J-35.
 
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