Chengdu next gen combat aircraft (?J-36) thread

[def333]

Agree totally except that 076 may not be able to fully support manned jets given parts/personnel requirements.

Then, here is a reminder for everybody, that 2038 is only 14 years from 2024. By now we all know what that means, right?

Also, from last week Medvedev's visit to Beijing. There are rumors that he mentioned turning Russia's Far East Region over to China as territory!? If so it will make Bering Sea air bases possible. I am not holding my breath for that though

He was referring to the post-World War II territory, not the earlier Far East

 

[manqiangrexue]

So I did this today and now I'm starting to think the J-36 MTOW may be much higher than 50tons. Has this possibility been discussed here? Note that the measurements on the first photo need to be scaled using the J-20's real dimensions.


View attachment 142677

View attachment 142664

How do you know the J-20's distance in relation to the camera vs the J-36's distance in relation to the camera, and their angles, which affect perceived length when measured? You cannot assume that they are equidistant to the camera and at the same angle, allowing for direct comparison.

You missed my point. I was referring to available volume not automatically translating into usable space that you can go ahead and populate with whatever you want and how there are other limiting factors such as MTOW and structural loads that have to be considered. You are correct about using other aircraft designs as a reference point in order to calculate the range of another aircraft, however, I wasn't using the J-20 as a reference point, but rather as a best case scenario to make a point.

How is the J-20 a best case scenario? Aren't we moving forward and improving?

The canards on the J-20 are not there to help with dogfighting. They are there because the J-20 wouldn't function without them. The wings of the J-20 are pushed back and the span is kept narrow in order to conform to the supersonic area rule and keep the wings from interacting with the nose cone shock to increase supercruising speeds. Because of that, the center of lift is so far from the center of gravity, that the plane needs the canards to shift the center of lift forward. Elevons might not have enough pitching authority during takeoff and landing due to low air speeds, so the canards step in to keep the nose up. Lift is directly proportional to the surface area of a wing and the area of a delta wing gets larger towards the back, so the center of lift will also shift rearwards as the speed increases. The canards on a J-20 are large and have a long moment arm (long distance from the center of lift), which means they can provide high lift at high speeds without deflecting too much in order to keep the drag as low as possible.

I didn't say they added canards to make it dogfight; I said that they chose a root design with canards in order to confer dogfighting maneuverability. So of course it won't function without canards but it doesn't mean they couldn't have designed a jet without them from the start if they weren't concerned about maneuverability.

Your statement regarding the J-36 being more aerodynamically efficient than the J-20 is absolutely incorrect. Just because the J-20 doesn't look as clean and minimalistic as the J-36, doesn't mean it will generate less drag than the J-20 at supersonic speeds. The J-20 is an aerodynamics masterpiece, but it is not easy to see. Compared to the J-36, the J-20 is significantly smaller and lighter. It has a lower aspect ratio and is more biased rearwards. The designers went to great lengths to push the weapon bay as forward as possible and placed the wing as far back as possible in order to be able to trim the fuselage where the wing grew to reduce wave drag, which wouldn't have been possible with the weapon bay in the way.

So as you can see, the J-20 is designed for serious speeds. Once you venture outside of subsonic flows, the subject of aerodynamics becomes a bit counter intuitive.

I love the J-20. But I don't know what aerodynamically efficient means. Does it mean overall flight envelope superiority or does it mean efficiency in long distance high altitude high speed straight flight? If the former, then I would maybe agree; I still hope that Chinese aerodynamics has made significant progress in these decades but the latter, I see a J-36 superiority. You can optimize J-20 all you want, but it's not going reduce drag to below not having anything there. In any case, to the eye, J-36 looks cleaner, stealthier, more optimized for distance, speed and altitude, but less maneuverable. Of course, we will need numbers to say anything for sure.

This doesn't mean the J-36 won't be able to go faster, it will have more thrust after all. It just means the J-36 will be consuming far more fuel at speeds the J-20 is designed for. It is however likely the J-36 will be far better optimized for high subsonic flow than the J-20.

I'm not so sure about that. If it's a design optimization specific for it, J-36 could be consume less fuel to just glide forward quickly than J-20.

 

[manqiangrexue]

They often say that the B-21 is sixth-generation, but there's just one problem: it's a bomber, and the generational system only applies to fighters by their own commercial definition.

Yes, exactly. I've only ever heard of 5th, 6th gen figthers, not 5th, 6th gen aircraft. The designation includes stuff like supercruise but the B-2/B-21 don't go supersonic at all with any engine power. Americans recently started making shit up calling the Raider the first 6th gen aircraft to make it look like they got there before China simply because they build a stealth aircraft after F-22/F-35.

 

[BoraTas]

They often say that the B-21 is sixth-generation, but there's just one problem: it's a bomber, and the generational system only applies to fighters by their own commercial definition.

Not going to lie. This entire 6th gen saga is delightful. They can't even use those aircraft aren't fighters excuse because Northrop called the B-21 6th gen. NGAD, well, nobody has seen it.

 

[Ringsword]

He was referring to the post-World War II territory, not the earlier Far East

Do you mean the Kurile Islands that Japan keeps whining about?That would be so funny and fun-geopolitically speaking

 

[LanceD23]

30K meter attitude and Mach 3 outclass any air fighters on earth

 

[asif iqbal]

well I can image a Squadron of these flying high and fast over the Pacific in the coming years

V-shaped 6th Generation aircraft

 

[EmoBirb]

Yes, exactly. I've only ever heard of 5th, 6th gen figthers, not 5th, 6th gen aircraft. The designation includes stuff like supercruise but the B-2/B-21 don't go supersonic at all with any engine power. Americans recently started making shit up calling the Raider the first 6th gen aircraft to make it look like they got there before China simply because they build a stealth aircraft after F-22/F-35.

I think it more so hints at the B-21 being more than just a bomber in the conventional sense. Similar to how the J-36 isn't a conventional fighter that fits some orthodox metric that was used previously. Aerial warfare is getting increasingly complex and the lines between certain roles are vanishing. Fighter, interceptor, attack, bomber, multirole, omnirole...more or less don't really apply to the very cutting edge of military aviation, which is the realm where aircraft like the B-21 or J-36 belong. Someone way earlier brought up naval parallels, "serial cruiser/destroyer" etc. I think that's more or less the direction we're heading in. And a modern Cruiser/Destroyer (also an instance where lines are blurring) can also do all sorts of missions as a multifunctional warship, be it anti-submarine warfare, anti-air warfare, anti-surface warfare, intelligence gathering, fleet command or hitting land based targets.

Something that will probably reflected in the upcoming generation of advanced aircraft, where you have large, multifunctional aircraft that can conduct several missions as well as functioning in a wider fleet of jets.

 

[tankphobia]

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I've written up some secondary and tertiary effect now. Just as a main course, here are 3000 km radius circles drawn around Kashgar, Harbin, Shanghai and Sanya. That's how far 3000 km range gets you.

View attachment 142665

Online pundits: we'll blockade the strait of Malacca and China is doomed!

J-36: LOL, LMAO even.

This range pretty much allows China to perform anti shipping duties across all of SEA.

 

[perpetual]

I wouldn’t underestimate the American deep state based off of internet things you see on platforms like Twitter. It helps when you realize that you are talking to literal children that have no actual access to the wheels of power.

I saw a twitter thread yesterday where some NAFO guy was calling our own Rick Joe an idiot and acting all mysterious as if he had some classified info and it turned out he was literally a random college student at SMU that had an interest in defense. He didn’t even hide it either.

Is the guy you're talking about John Ridge lol