Chengdu next gen combat aircraft (?J-36) thread

[Biscuits]

Manned vs unmanned is just an American false dichotomy used to rationalize them being poor.
Rich countries don't need to gamble, rich countries just build all of them.

It's interesting how history rhymes and this is basically the Mig-25 story again but with different actors.

America played up the B-21 hard. They said it was practically a 6th gen fighter, that it can use AAMs effectively, that it could in the future direct drone swarms. There was a belief (even among some here) that all aspect stealth/tailess design could let it fly through Siberia to attack China from the north, or drop JDAMs on airbases on the mainland coast, then safely return home. It was a huge scare.

And sure the B-21 is probably shaping up to be a very good aircraft, just like Mig-25s ended up decent or even great as well. But they were not the panacea that USAF claimed they were and scared China into thinking they would be. With subsonic speed and a size appropriate IR signature, they are not escaping defended airspace. Leading a fleet of 5th gen will cancel out the 5th gens' advantage of supercruise. And while MUMT and sensor fusion is all the craze, they've not shown anything outside the realm of J-20S.

US' insistence on claiming it had the perfect airspace penetrator and aircraft "leader" probably helped China evaluate how to make it's own next generation fighter(s) along those lines.

 

[iewgnem]

It's interesting how history rhymes and this is basically the Mig-25 story again but with different actors.

America played up the B-21 hard. They said it was practically a 6th gen fighter, that it can use AAMs effectively, that it could in the future direct drone swarms. There was a belief (even among some here) that all aspect stealth/tailess design could let it fly through Siberia to attack China from the north, or drop JDAMs on airbases on the mainland coast, then safely return home. It was a huge scare.

And sure the B-21 is probably shaping up to be a very good aircraft, just like Mig-25s ended up decent or even great as well. But they were not the panacea that USAF claimed they were and scared China into thinking they would be. With subsonic speed and a size appropriate IR signature, they are not escaping defended airspace. Leading a fleet of 5th gen will cancel out the 5th gens' advantage of supercruise. And while MUMT and sensor fusion is all the craze, they've not shown anything outside the realm of J-20S.

US' insistence on claiming it had the perfect airspace penetrator and aircraft "leader" probably helped China evaluate how to make it's own next generation fighter(s) along those lines.

NGAD was supposed to be Mig-25, US is just so poor vis-a-vis China they couldn't even build their Mig-25....
B-21 is just B-2 restart, and it's not even cheap, calling it 6th gen is pure American cope over not being able to build NGAD, it's like calling a 737 4th gen fighter...

 

[Gloire_bb]

There can however be a real question of what a H-20 conceived in its original incarnation actually provides now.

Arguably:

- H-20 loses in survivability and penetration ability compared to J-XC.

- H-20 loses in volume fire to swarms of MALE and missile spam.

That leaves it with little niches.

Imho it would make sense to go back to evaluation stage with H-20. I think the bomber force China actually misses isn't a flying wing bomber but a stealthy version of the B-1.

Something that can keep pace with the 6th gens, zoom in mostly unseen, dump a ton of missiles and get out.

(1)Time of flight(including loiter)/range. Fuel fraction several times higher, much, much higher wing aspect ratio.
Bomber doesn't need t:w as long as it can take off, and no normal CCA will keep up with it.
(2)Deeper payload bays. Bombers can and usually have bays as tall as the aircraft itself.
Bombers can take CCAs , oversized munitions and payload dispensers (rotary launchers for example) inside.
CHAD almost certainly can't.
(3) Subsonic engines(much higher bypass) and overall higher achievable stealth across the board, coming from lack of maneuvering/heat requirements. Ability to cruise slower and higher.

 

[Maikeru]

The biggest reason for the H20 is to credibly threaten Pearl Harbor/San Diego, and secondarily Diego Garcia.

I'm not sure if the CPC believes that's a priority at this time, as they have repeatedly said they have no desire to challenge US global leadership

You could reach DG with H6s launching ALCM/ALBM flying over Myanmar or Pakistan.

 

[superdog]

There can however be a real question of what a H-20 conceived in its original incarnation actually provides now.

Arguably:

- H-20 loses in survivability and penetration ability compared to J-XC.

- H-20 loses in volume fire to swarms of MALE and missile spam.

That leaves it with little niches.

Imho it would make sense to go back to evaluation stage with H-20. I think the bomber force China actually misses isn't a flying wing bomber but a stealthy version of the B-1.

Something that can keep pace with the 6th gens, zoom in mostly unseen, dump a ton of missiles and get out.

So basically an even larger version of the J-XC?

 

[zyklon]

this is just a humongous aircraft. Those are some large wings that can hold a whole lot of fuel + just all that space in the fuselage.

Looks to be seriously optimized for top cruising speed. I think Shilao people said something about mach 3.0 cruising with next generation engine. I would not be surprised.

If a cruising speed of mach 3 is achievable, then Chengdu's new triple engine beast is starting to sound a lot like what Russia's PAK DP is or was promised to be.

A spiritual successor to the Foxhound would be fitting given the Foxbat comparison that have already been highlighted by many . . .

 

[SlothmanAllen]

I think some people need to realize that the US has already flown demonstrators for NGAD as far back as about five or so years ago. Yes, the program was put under review, but I don't think the revealing of these aircraft indicates China is ahead of the US. Imagine if we had gotten pictures of those demonstrators when they first flew? How different would the narrative be surrounding the flight these aircraft today?

 

[coolgod]

I think some people need to realize that the US has already flown demonstrators for NGAD as far back as about five or so years ago. Yes, the program was put under review, but I don't think the revealing of these aircraft indicates China is ahead of the US. Imagine if we had gotten pictures of those demonstrators when they first flew? How different would the narrative be surrounding the flight these aircraft today?

Just imagine if the US didn't publicly reveal pictures of astronauts on the moon, how different would the narrative be surrounding US space program today?

Your line of reasoning is pure cope. If the US was confident in their NGAD demonstrators, they would reveal pictures of them.

 

[bebops]

US is going to lose because of cost, not a technology issue. The reason US wants to build b21 because B2 is way too expensive (1+billion per piece).. B21 is not much cheaper.. I just looked up the cost. It is 700m+ per piece for b21.

U.S intended to build 130+ B2 but not possible due to high cost. B21 will end up the same fate as B2.

Year after year, cost will go up. 700m+ at today's cost will be 800m+ in a few years.

 

[Gloire_bb]

US is going to lose because of cost, not a technology issue. The reason US wants to build b21 because B2 is way too expensive (1+billion per piece).. B21 is not much cheaper.. I just looked up the cost. It is 700m+ per piece for b21.

U.S intended to build 130+ B2 but not possible due to high cost. B21 is the same too.

Year after year, cost will go up. 700m+ at today's cost will be 800m+ in a few years.

B-2 was so expensive only because the production was cut early; program cost was spread over few units.