Can China overtake the US in GDP Nominal before the end of this decade? A Thread...

Which Scenario do you think is most likely?


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iantsai

Junior Member
Registered Member
You would need to substantiate that
Well, let me explain.

First, United States, being the most powerful economic entity in the world, can use its monetary policy to gain benifits from other country. Although this tool weakened for the recent decade, it will still work as far as the USD being the de facto world currency.

Second, the superiority of the US technologies over China, especially in semiconductor and software industry, will gift United States another powerful tool to contain China's rising.

The ZTE & Huawei issues demostrate the power of the US economic and technological blockade very well.

Since the 1990s, the growth of the US economy is always a bit higher than Europe. If US GDP growth remains 2%-3% like the recent decades, and China keeps a growth of 5%-6%, then it will take China 11-14 years to catch up with the United States.

To overtake US before year 2029, China should have a growth 4% higher than United States. It is not easy to do so for China, while there won't be so many unoccupied international markets to support the average annual growth of 6% or more.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Well we all know sooner or latter China will eclipse the US. Seem like the beltway slowly come to this realization.
"China is on track to surpass us economically, militarily and geopolitically. These measures are not independent: a dominant economy provides the wherewithal to mount a dominant military. Combined, these will win for China the hearts and minds of many nations attuned to their own survival and prosperity," Romney wrote.

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China's Military, Economy on Track to Become World's Most Powerful, Warns Mitt Romney

BY
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ON 6/27/21 AT 5:09 PM EDT


Utah Republican Senator
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warned Sunday that China is on track to becoming the world's most powerful military and economy, likely representing the most significant challenges to U.S. foreign policy.

"The real challenge...is the emergence of China, which is on track to become the most powerful economy in the world and the most powerful military in the world. And that represents a greater challenge over the coming couple of decades," Romney said on
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"I think the president is increasingly aware of that challenge, as is his secretary of state, [Antony] Blinken, and I think they're looking to try to pull together our alliances to wake up to that reality and take action to dissuade China from the path of confrontation and military aggressiveness," he added

China's growing military has increasingly been the subject of concern for world leaders. In an interview published in the Financial Times Friday, senior
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officer Stuart Peach warned that
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"It is quite shocking how quickly China has built ships, how much China has modernized its air force, how much it has invested in cyber and other forms of information management, not least facial recognition," Peach told the news outlet.

"I think it's very important to keep an eye on that. What do you do if you're a leader in China with a modernized powerful large force? You deploy it, you move it around," he added.

In an op-ed written for The Washington Post last month, Romney added that China's growing development is becoming the most severe "existential threat" to the U.S.

"China is on track to surpass us economically, militarily and geopolitically. These measures are not independent: a dominant economy provides the wherewithal to mount a dominant military. Combined, these will win for China the hearts and minds of many nations attuned to their own survival and prosperity," Romney wrote.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
China surpassing the U.S. in GDP nominal has little significance other than psychological effects. The real important metrics are industrial output, technological innovation, and living standards. Given the population disparity, I don't think China is quite there yet.
 

Abominable

Major
Registered Member
China surpassing the U.S. in GDP nominal has little significance other than psychological effects. The real important metrics are industrial output, technological innovation, and living standards. Given the population disparity, I don't think China is quite there yet.
I respectfully disagree. A bigger GDP would mean more military spending per percentage of GDP. America would need to increase its defence spending to maintain its lead over China.

It would put the dollar's reserve currency status at risk which in turn would cause the American GDP to drop.

Also, it means a bigger contribution to international agencies like the UN, as these are tied to GDP. More international influence.
 

horse

Colonel
Registered Member
manufacturingtop10ibtimes.jpg
 

robi

New Member
Registered Member
While reading this
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, I found this interesting and fascinating tidbit:



However there may be several interesting scenarios as to how this plays out in the coming decade, and I have four different scenarios for how/when China's GDP can overtake that of the US's: (1) low-baseline growth, low RMB appreciation against USD, (2) low-baseline growth, high RMB appreciation against USD, (3) high-baseline growth, low RMB appreciation against USD, and (4) high-baseline growth, high RMB appreciation against the USD.

TLDR:
Scenario (1)- 2030
Scenario (2)- 2026
Scenario (3)- 2028
Scenario (4)- 2025

Let's get into the nitty-gritty:
For Scenario (1) of low-baseline growth, low RMB appreciation against USD, lets presume GDP Growth Rates between China vs US are as follows for the 2020-29 Decade:

YearChina GDP Nominal Growth Rate (%)US GDP Nominal Growth Rate (%)
20211.0%-8.0%
20228.0%4.5%
20236.7%2.9%
20246.2%2.5%
20256.0%2.2%
20265.8%2.1%
20275.7%2.0%
20285.6%2.0%
20295.5%2.1%
20305.4%2.1%

For context, the 2019 GDP Nominal figures for these two countries are as follows:
YearChina GDP Nominal (Billions, USD)US GDP Nominal (Billions, USD)
20191434321374

Applying Scenario (1) growth rates to GDP:
YearChina GDP Nominal (Billions, USD)US GDP Nominal (Billions, USD)
20201448619664
20221564520549
20231669421145
20241772921674
20251879222150
20261988222615
20272101523068
20282219223529
20292341324023
20302467724528

As such, according to this scenario (1), assuming the exchange rate between USD to RMB remains 1 USD= 7 RMB, then China will overtake the US likely in 2030, which is past this decade. This scenario is most unfavorable for China, precisely because (1) it assumes no appreciation in the value of the RMB, in contrast to recent trends (RMB has appreciated 4%+ these past few months), and (2) it assumes the most pessimistic GDP growth rates for China, a constant deceleration in growth in the Chinese economy for the rest of the decade and that a GDP growth ceiling of <6% (despite as recently as 2017-18, that ceiling being closer to ~7% per annum, and not accounting for the recent easing of the US-China trade war, which was primarily responsible for the lowered growth rates in 2018 and 2019).

In Scenario (2), with low-baseline growth, high RMB appreciation against USD, if we do take into account RMB appreciation against the USD however, such that 1 USD= 6 RMB by 2025, for instance, instead, whereas the growth of the value of the RMB is 16.67% increase in RMB value across 6 years from 1 RMB= 0.143 USD in 2020 to 1 RMB= .167 USD in 2025, meaning a 2.61% increase in RMB value per year on average, we get these GDP Nominal Figures of China vs US:

Applying Scenario (2) RMB appreciation to GDP:
YearChina GDP Nominal (Billions, USD)US GDP Nominal (Billions, USD)
20201486519664
20221647220549
20231803521145
20241965321674
20252137622150
20262261622615
20272390523068
20282524423529
20292663224023
20302807024528

As you can see, assuming that by 2025, 1 USD= 6 RMB (and less just say RMB stops appreciating after 2025, remaining at the 1 USD= 6 RMB rate), China's GDP (Nominal) will be able to overtake the US GDP (nominal) in the Scenario (2) of low-baseline growth, high RMB appreciation against USD.

For Scenario (3), let us presume China's GDP Growth rates are far more favourable/optimistic for them in the coming decade, especially relative to the US's:

YearChina GDP Nominal Growth Rate (%)US GDP Nominal Growth Rate (%)
20213.6%-8.0%
20227.8%4.5%
20237.1%2.9%
20246.8%2.5%
20256.7%2.2%
20266.6%2.1%
20276.5%2.0%
20286.4%2.0%
20296.4%2.1%
20306.3%2.1%

Applying these GDP Nominal Growth Figures of Scenario (3), assuming no appreciation in the RMB's value against the USD this next decade:

YearChina GDP Nominal (Billions, USD)US GDP Nominal (Billions, USD)
20201485919664
20221601820549
20231715621145
20241832221674
20251955022150
20262084022615
20272219523068
20282361523529
20292512724023
20302671024528

As such, in Scenario (3), I postulate that China's Nominal GDP can overtake the US Nominal GDP by 2028, similar Homi Kharas' prediction, with GDP growth rates more favourable to/optimistic for China, without accounting for any RMB appreciation in value against the USD.

Now, lets consider the most optimistic scenario for China: Scenario (4), which postulates high-baseline growth, high RMB appreciation against the USD for China. Here, like before, assuming if we do take into account RMB appreciation against the USD however, such that 1 USD= 6 RMB by 2025, for instance, instead, whereas the growth of the value of the RMB is 16.67% increase in RMB value across 6 years from 1 RMB= 0.143 USD in 2020 to 1 RMB= .167 USD in 2025, meaning a 2.61% increase in RMB value per year on average between 2020-25, we get these GDP Nominal Figures of China vs US:


YearChina GDP Nominal (Billions, USD)US GDP Nominal (Billions, USD)
20201524719664
20221686520549
20231853421145
20242031121674
20252223822150
20262370622615
20272524623068
20282686223529
20292858124023
20303038224528

According to this Scenario (4), the most optimistic scenario possible, China's Nominal GDP can overtake the US Nominal GDP by 2025, as well as become the first-ever $30-trillion USD economy.

What do you guys think? Which of these 4 scenarios do you think is the most likely? Please leave your thoughts or comments in the thread below. I'd love to hear what you guys think!

Note: for Scenarios 1 & 2, the GDP Growth Rates for both US and China for the years 2020 and 2021 are directly from the IMF June 2020 Global Forecast.
it's not so hard to have the strongest GDP forecast when you own so much money and have so much debt that the US will never ever pay back , when you take other aspects into it and add each countries debts China is the world leader already !
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
China needs to keep the defense spending at an adequate level lest not the US decide to get uppity.
Just not enough to bankrupt the state like the Soviets did.

Romney is being a bit of an ass though. China has not shown any intention to replace the US Navy as a global navy. They also do not have enough forward bases. The US has an Atlantic and a Pacific Coast. China has no bases in the Atlantic. It would require the assistance of Russian bases and those are suboptimal anyway. On a first approximation China could use Mediterranean bases and only cover the trade there but they don't have bases in the Mediterranean either. Not yet anyway.
 
I respectfully disagree. A bigger GDP would mean more military spending per percentage of GDP. America would need to increase its defence spending to maintain its lead over China.

It would put the dollar's reserve currency status at risk which in turn would cause the American GDP to drop.

Also, it means a bigger contribution to international agencies like the UN, as these are tied to GDP. More international influence.
And how is nominal GDP more relevant than real GDP for any of those cases?

Dollar status as reserve currency would not suddenly be threatened by some number on paper, and how is UN contribution tied to GDP?
 
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