Bhutan: Dangerous liaison

manqiangrexue

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Orthan said:
Wrong. China has removed its troops and the equipment. Both sides moved out under verification. The road wont be built anymore. This is a defeat for china.

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LOL The article that you cited contradicts itself. It says that China has removed its troops, then it says China continues to patrol the border. What's it patrolling with? Civilians? And this self-contradictory situation is "verified?" By what? India's imagination?

Where is there an agreement that the road won't be built? A formal one, not one where the Indians say that they think it won't be built cus LOL they don't control that. I can tell you all day long that a road won't be built in California but quite frankly, it's not my call. You need to hear it from the government of California or at least see a signed formal agreement by the people in power (well, educated people do; you might be fine with an anonymous post-in on your door). There is no written statement, agreement, or other communication approved from China that says the road won't be built; as a matter of fact, China says it will build or not build based on only its own situation. It is bound by nothing else.

The problem is that you quoted an Indian propaganda article (the kind of article that says India's the next superpower LOL) and didn't think about reliability. But it's an improvement for you cus you used to read nothing and just come here with no idea of what happened in the last 6 months LOL Good try, but you're wrong again. Next time maybe.
 
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Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Yup it is Indian press known for chest thumping and lying It contradict itself by saying the Chinese troop has been removed But Foreign minister spoke woman clearly said Chine will continue to patrol the area? How ? with invisible soldier?

China clearly said the road construction will depend solely on Chinese assessment of the situation taking into account weather etc NO one said it will never be built Here is the statement

China's border troops to continue to patrol Doklam: FM
Source:Global Times Published: 2017/8/29 17:05:34

China said on Tuesday that its infrastructure plans in the Doklam area will be based on actual conditions and Chinese border troops will continue to patrol the area.

"Conditions such as weather would determine China's infrastructure plan in the Doklam area," Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson Hua Chunying said at a press conference on Tuesday.

"To meet the needs and improve the working and living conditions of the local army and residents, China has been working on a long-term infrastructure plan in Doklam, such as building roads," Hua said.

China announced that India had pulled back its troops and equipment to the Indian side of the boundary, and that Chinese border troops will continue to patrol the Doklam area, Hua noted.

On June 18, more than 270 Indian troops and two bulldozers crossed the boundary in the Sikkim sector and advanced more than 100 meters into Chinese territory to obstruct routine road construction in the Dong Lang area of the Tibet Autonomous Region, the Xinhua News Agency reported.

Doklam, or Dong Lang, which borders India's Sikkim state to the west and Bhutan to the south, is part of Chinese territory and has been under Chinese rule for a very long time.

Global Times
 
O

Orthan

Senior Member
manqiangrexue said:
LOL The article that you cited contradicts itself. It says that China has removed its troops, then it says China continues to patrol the border.(...)There is no written statement, agreement, or other communication approved from China that says the road won't be built(...)China says
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What was removed was the troops and equipment that were involved in the standoff. China may send patrols in the area, but they wont build anything. Thats not a contradiction.

There is not written agreement? acording to who? you? Have you seen it?

China has said and can say a lot of things. What matters is what they do. And what they did right now was to withdraw its troops and equipment. They may return but now they know that india will not let them build the road. This is a defeat for china.
 
Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Orthan said:
What was removed was the troops and equipment that were involved in the standoff. China may send patrols in the area, but they wont build anything. Thats not a contradiction.

There is not written agreement? acording to who? you? Have you seen it?

China has said and can say a lot of things. What matters is what they do. And what they did right now was to withdraw its troops and equipment. They may return but now they know that india will not let them build the road. This is a defeat for china.
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What troop are you talking It is road construction crew to begin with and they are unarmed then the squatter come and stay. China told to move your butt and they did And China still patrolling the area meaning exercising her sovereignty in Donglam and Indian by acquiescence essentially recognize Chinese sovereignty in Donglam

Before they said it is Bhutan territory so they have the right to squat. No it isn't Now they change their tune ?
It basically invalidate their claim and has to eat their own word. this dispute is about sovereignty and not about road. It is about recognizing border and boundary
Winter is coming and the construction is halted temporarily so nothing special about that At the same time give the Indian face saving way out
 
manqiangrexue

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Orthan said:
What was removed was the troops and equipment that were involved in the standoff. China may send patrols in the area, but they wont build anything. Thats not a contradiction.

There is not written agreement? acording to who? you? Have you seen it?

China has said and can say a lot of things. What matters is what they do. And what they did right now was to withdraw its troops and equipment. They may return but now they know that india will not let them build the road. This is a defeat for china.
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India won't let whom? The unarmed construction team? Next time China goes to build the road, they will be supported by heavily armed infantry and it won't be up to India what they do. Indians can only ambush unarmed construction workers; when the PLA show up ready to fight, Indians go home. We saw that in 1962 and we saw that yesterday.

What is wrong with your brain? You just asked me, "Have you seen it?" to something I said doesn't exist. Of course I haven't seen it! Nobody's seen it because it doesn't exist. According to me because I saw the Chinese news saying that China reserves all rights to build whatever they want based on their own decision. There was no agreement hence India can't show it because they don't have it. That's why I/you/everyone hasn't seen it and it's not presented in any news. If no one's seen it and no one has reported on it, then we assume that there was no agreement. Nobody's seen Santa Claus so we assume he doesn't exist. See how logic works? Or are you gonna say, "Santa doesn't exist? According to who (sic)? You? Have you seen him?" LOL

The Chinese troops involved in the stand off are the same troops that are patrolling the area. Common sense. Nobody would pull all their troops back and then send different people there. That's just a waste of time and resources.

Summary for you:
All Indian troops are gone. Chinese troops are still there. China reserves the right to build whenever, wherever, bound by only their own choice, and they explicitly said that.
 
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PiSigma

PiSigma

"the engineer"
Orthan said:
What was removed was the troops and equipment that were involved in the standoff. China may send patrols in the area, but they wont build anything. Thats not a contradiction.

There is not written agreement? acording to who? you? Have you seen it?

China has said and can say a lot of things. What matters is what they do. And what they did right now was to withdraw its troops and equipment. They may return but now they know that india will not let them build the road. This is a defeat for china.
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India removed their troops and equipment... Therefore they lost.
China still patrols the border...therefore they win.
The road crew are civilians, no one said anything about them, therefore only in India's imagination did road costruction stop. For all we know next year road construction and on top of that China builds a few bunkers just to be sure.
China do things after thought and methodically not like India in this case.

It is only in India's imagination or spin to the dumb masses that somehow India won. Not even Bhutan said India won, so it is just them believing their own lies. No wonder some people think India won in 62 still, or they all think China started it. It is just too easy to brainwash the uneducated masses.
 
S

sanblvd

Junior Member
Registered Member
Jura said:
it's time to repeat what I said Monday at 8:36 PM
(I know I then repeated it in the other thread):

if I see a CCTV News report from a resumed road-building, the winner will be obvious
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Seriously man, double post is not necessary, are you trying to prove a point or something? (Who am I kidding, of course you are)

It seems to me like your threshold of Indian victory condition is extremely low, and Chinese victory condition is extremely high.

Isn't it enough that after being told to gtfo out of China, India refuses and double down on the bet, it went all over the world looking for supporter and found NONE, as a result they have no choice but to withdraw under ever more Chinese pressure.

And no where in the settlement statement that China or nor India says that China have agreed to cease construction or stop all future constructions, because trust me, if China agree to this, or even agree to this in secret, Indians would be all over the news howling for victory.

So it seems to me the winner is pretty damn clear, but for some reason this is not enough for you, you want to see blood.

Let me tell you how this is going to go down, China will probably NOT resume construction of the road for at least 6 month to give India some face saving... and no, its not out of Chinese weakness, its more out of China's goodwill and maintain a somewhat friendly relationships.

But when this whole thing blows over, China will resume construction and this time, it will be back up by real soldier with shoot to kill orders and the media will not cover this because they would be moving on to the next Trump scandal.

And you Jura of course, will declare India the winner for the obvious reason.
 
A

antiterror13

Brigadier
I reckon this is a win for both sides .. no losing face for India .. at least in front of Indian people .. and it is good :p

OTOH ... Chinese diplomacy is a first class .. no doubt about it ... what happened in the background really doesn't matter .. who cares ... just move on
 
Blitzo

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Jura said:
it's time to repeat what I said Monday at 8:36 PM
(I know I then repeated it in the other thread):

if I see a CCTV News report from a resumed road-building, the winner will be obvious
Click to expand...

... What makes you think China will want to broadcast the road building if they chose to?

That would be the equivalent of flaunting a victory and rubbing it in India's face. Why do you think China would want to do that? :confused:


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and for anyone who has yet to see the Chinese FM's official statements on this or who have forgotten, let's have a looksie...


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Q: We have learned that on the afternoon of August 28, the Indian border troops and equipment that illegal crossed the Sikkim sector of the China-India border have all been withdrawn to the Indian side, marking an end to the trespassing incident. Do you have more information?

A: On June 18, the Indian border troops illegally crossed the well-delimited China-India border in the Sikkim Sector into China's Dong Lang area. China has lodged representations with the Indian side many times through diplomatic channels, made the facts and truth of this situation known to the international community, clarified China's solemn position and explicit demands, and urged India to immediately pull back its border troops to the India's side. In the meantime, the Chinese military has taken effective countermeasures to ensure the territorial sovereignty and legitimate rights and interests of the state.

At about 2:30 p.m. of August 28, the Indian side withdrew all its border personnel and equipment that were illegally on the Chinese territory to the Indian side. The Chinese personnel onsite have verified this situation. China will continue fulfilling its sovereign rights to safeguard territorial sovereignty in compliance with the stipulations of the border-related historical treaty.

The Chinese government attaches importance to developing good neighborly and friendly relations with India. We hope that India could earnestly honor the border-related historical treaty as well as the basic principles of international law and work with China to preserve peace and stability in the border area and promote the sound development of bilateral relations on the basis of mutual respect for each other's territorial sovereignty.


Q: Can you confirm that the Indian personnel have already left or they are in the process of leaving?

A: I am pleased to confirm that the Indian border personnel and equipment have all been withdrawn to the Indian side of the border.

Q: The Indian government's announcement is that there is a "mutual disengagement" of the troops between the two countries. You haven't mentioned the pullback of the Chinese troops. You mentioned only the pullback of the Indian troops. How do you explain?

A: The Chinese side has made it clear that the Indian border personnel and equipment that trespassed into China's territory have all been withdrawn to the Indian side of the border. The Chinese border troops continue with their patrols and stationing in the Dong Lang area. China will continue with its exercise of sovereign rights to protect territorial sovereignty in accordance with the stipulations of the border-related historical treaty.

Q: The Indian side said that it is a "mutual disengagement". Do you agree with that?

A: What I want to stress is that the Indian side withdrew all its border personnel and equipment that were illegally on the Chinese territory to the Indian side. The Chinese personnel onsite have verified this situation. The Chinese border troops continue with their patrols and stationing in the Dong Lang area. China will continue fulfilling its sovereign rights to safeguard territorial sovereignty in compliance with the stipulations of the border-related historical treaty. In the meantime, in light of the changing landscape on the ground, China will make necessary adjustments and deployment as it sees fit.
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and reporters continued to press the issue, and Hua Chunying kept repeating herself

Q: You said that India has unilaterally pulled back from the Dong Lang area, as was asked by the Chinese side. Then you said that the Chinese side will make adjustments accordingly. Could you clarify what do you mean by that?

A: I have made myself very clear. In light of the changes on the ground, China will accordingly make necessary adjustments and deployment. I also stressed that the Chinese border troops will continue fulfilling the sovereignty rights to safeguard territorial sovereignty in compliance with the stipulations of the border-related historical treaty.
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and again, the next day:

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Q: Has China stopped building roads in the Dong Lang area?

A: China has said clearly that all the trespassing personnel and equipment of India have been withdrawn to the Indian side of the border, and The Chinese border troops continue with their patrols and stationing in the Dong Lang area. China has long been carrying out infrastructure building, including roads, in the Dong Lang area to meet the needs of guarding the border and to improve the living and working conditions of the troops stationed there and people living there. Taking into account various factors like the weather, we will make proper building plans in light of the actual situation.

Q: Could you tell us that how many Chinese soldiers are still deployed at the Dong Lang area?

A: This is a very specific question. What I can tell you is that The Chinese border troops continue with their patrols and stationing in the Dong Lang area. China will adjust and deploy its military resources in accordance with the need of guarding the border and the situation on the ground.
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