Badgering people for classified information

As far as I can tell, this is an open forum for people to come here to see and to debate. Everyone must decide for his own fate to either defend what he said or dodge the challenges.

If the mods want to protect certain "assets", the rules need to be changed accordingly.

Mohsin77 said:

The problem is that 'platform vs platform' arguments are just silly to begin with. A single platform is a drop in an ocean of interconnected operations, and this is especially true when the systems become as complex as those employed by China and the US. So any debate on J-20 vs F-22 completely misses the forest for the trees.

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I *mostly* agree but platform vs platform does matter at the tactical level. It’s not singularly determinative, but it’s not a small factor.

Patchwork_Chimera said:

lol, lmao.

NASIC would like to have a word with you about that. J-20-chan is neat, but also comes from a time when the PLA's opsec was notably worse.

Say, you ever wondered what the difference between a jammer and a radar is? (hint: not much these days)

I'm not going to play classification chicken by going into anything, but I absolutely insist that for as great as the J-20 may be, and despite its marked superiority in terms of the impact it can achieve within its own overall counter-air system - the F-22, as a tactical platform, brings more to the table.

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The F-22 is a 20 year old airframe that has since halted production. The J-20 was introduced 5 years ago and is receiving consistent upgrades. Is your implication that China's avionics, sensors, missiles, etc in 2022 inferior to that of the US 20 years ago? Surely, as the J-20 continues evolving and receiving upgrades, for example WS-15, it would surpass the F-22.

latenlazy said:

I *mostly* agree but platform vs platform does matter at the tactical level. It’s not singularly determinative, but it’s not a small factor.

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Yea I'm not disparaging the tactical level either, but just the fact that things got so heated over a tactical level debate... It's just ironic.

SanWenYu said:

As far as I can tell, this is an open forum for people to come here to see and to debate. Everyone must decide for his own fate to either defend what he said or dodge the challenges.

If the mods want to protect certain "assets", the rules need to be changed accordingly.

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I think the initial challenges were perfectly fine. I don't have an opinion on what Patchwork wrote but it is undeniable that he doesn't have any evidence to back up his claims nor would he be able to provide any evidence. The following back and forth for several pages culminating in explicit asks for classified documents was what was egregious.

How does any of what happened in those few pages help solve an argument or maintain/elevate the quality of discussion in a flagship thread?

tphuang said:

Seriously, please stop it. @Patchwork_Chimera knows what he is talking about here. F-22 is still probably the most singularly capable platform. I wouldn't use Bob Gates as a measurement of how well versed US intelligence is on PLA.

this forum really devolves into sadness if every discussion continues allow the line of don't believe Western propaganda.

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There's nothing wrong with asking why instead of simply accepting his statements at face value. After all that is what a forum is for.

Patchwork_Chimera said:

I mean, yeah lol. Pilots do it all the time too, but for some reason it's only boffinbros like me that get shit for it

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The US submarine crews are leaking like a rust bucket LOL. You can find usual patrol speeds, depths, and detection ranges on the internet forums.

banjex said:

GG, fools. Inexcusably shameful. edit: no bans for those responsible? even a temporary one?

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If you reveal that you have classified data and even write conclusions based on the said data, people will come out and ask why. You don't get to use appeal to authority arguments on the internet and walk out without people asking for evidence for your judgment. I wouldn't ban anybody for this.

BoraTas said:

If you reveal that you have classified data and even write conclusions based on the said data, people will come out and ask why. You don't get to use appeal to authority arguments on the internet and walk out without people asking for evidence for your judgment. I wouldn't ban anybody for this.

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Asking for evidence is just a natural response, after all.

BoraTas said:

If you reveal that you have classified data and even write conclusions based on the said data, people will come out and ask why. You don't get to use appeal to authority arguments on the internet and walk out without people asking for evidence for your judgment. I wouldn't ban anybody for this.

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You absolutely do get to use appeal to authority if you are an authority with access to exclusive knowledge.
Ultimately not all opinions are made equal.

Yes, if someone claims to be an authority and one wants to demand evidence because of one's own skepticism, then that is that person's right to ask for it and demand for it, in context of a thorough, equal and fair debate.
But that does not make it good etiquette, polite or reasonable to do so, and this forum is not a place of equal and fair debate where all information can be openly shared.
Sometimes just because you logically have the right to request something, does not mean it is reasonable to do so.


Ultimately, I think some people can benefit to learn to choose your battles and perhaps recognizing not every inch of "CHYNA STRONG" needs to be defended and contested to the hilt.
Yet you can bet that some of the people arguing so strongly in demand for evidence would have not made a sound if the statements made were that their impression was that J-20 was superior or equal to F-22 in all domains.


And yes, I also echo tphuang's sentiments that perhaps sometimes people may be better well served to just observe, which is putting it quite kindly.