Badgering people for classified information

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broadsword

Brigadier
I did not have the time to read all of patchwork's essays in this thread, but I have two questions.

1) Does he think China does not know about the F-22 as much as America knows about the J-20?
2) Are what he wrote about the US capabilities supposed to be classified? If they were, wouldn't the MIB come knocking on his door already?
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
I did not have the time to read all of patchwork's essays in this thread, but I have two questions.

1) Does he think China does not know about the F-22 as much as America knows about the J-20?
2) Are what he wrote about the US capabilities supposed to be classified? If they were, wouldn't the MIB come knocking on his door already?
1) Regardless of what each side knows the capability assessment is fixed on measurable parameters

2) He was not writing about anything classified. *But* the line between classified and unclassified can be subtle and being egged on can lead to inadvertent slip ups.
 

BoraTas

Major
Registered Member
You absolutely do get to use appeal to authority if you are an authority with access to exclusive knowledge.
Ultimately not all opinions are made equal.

Yes, if someone claims to be an authority and one wants to demand evidence because of one's own skepticism, then that is that person's right to ask for it and demand for it, in context of a thorough, equal and fair debate.
But that does not make it good etiquette, polite or reasonable to do so, and this forum is not a place of equal and fair debate where all information can be openly shared.
Sometimes just because you logically have the right to request something, does not mean it is reasonable to do so.


Ultimately, I think some people can benefit to learn to choose your battles and perhaps recognizing not every inch of "CHYNA STRONG" needs to be defended and contested to the hilt.
Yet you can bet that some of the people arguing so strongly in demand for evidence would have not made a sound if the statements made were that their impression was that J-20 was superior or equal to F-22 in all domains.


And yes, I also echo tphuang's sentiments that perhaps sometimes people may be better well served to just observe, which is putting it quite kindly.
I agree with most of this but internet forums are not professional environments where people's identities are known. We actually don't know how authoritative the person we are talking to is. In a such environment people will dig your claims if you make clear cut statements, especially you after you claim access to intelligence agency data.

I'd say patchwork_chimera was most likely truthful about his job considering the depth of knowledge he had displayed but as I said earlier, we don't really know. Based on my experience on other forums regarding people who likely had security clerances, his writings were always in "enjoy it while you can" category for me. People with access to classified data do leak without writing classified stuff. They usually end up compiling public data in a such way that they kill all the disinfo and rumors, which is not very different from straight out posting out specs. Most stop posting after they realize that
 

Mohsin77

Senior Member
Registered Member
You don't get to use appeal to authority arguments on the internet and walk out without people asking for evidence for your judgment.

You're not understanding the problem.

Even his 'appeal to authority' conclusions add value, as long as you interpret them as a didactic indicator. You don't have to take them as gospel. He even told you guys to take his conclusions with a grain of salt. So clearly he wasn't forcing his conclusions on you, but sharing his informed and educated conclusion on a topic, for you to take or leave. That's a very fair position. You can't demand he breach OPSEC just to prove you wrong, nor can you expect him to concede the point because he can't reveal classified data.

This is a defence forum and defence SMEs (who are a valuable asset) have opsec rules they have to follow, therefore that consideration necessarily needs to be respected by members.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
You're not understanding the problem.

Even his 'appeal to authority' conclusions add value, as long as you interpret them as a didactic indicator. You don't have to take them as gospel. He even told you guys to take his conclusions with a grain of salt. So clearly he wasn't forcing his conclusions on you, but sharing his informed and educated conclusion on a topic, for you to take or leave. That's a very fair position. You can't demand he breach OPSEC just to prove you wrong, nor can you expect him to concede the point because he can't reveal classified data.

This is a defence forum and defence SMEs (who are a valuable asset) have opsec rules they have to follow, therefore that consideration necessarily needs to be respected by members.
Some guys try to use argumentation as an attempt to dominate others rather than as an intellectual exercise. One of the things I do not like about parts of this forum culture is that some people are more interested in trying to “put people in their place” than in having a productive discussion. This forum would be a lot better and offer a whole lot more value if we had a lot less of the former and a lot more of the latter.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I agree with most of this but internet forums are not professional environments where people's identities are known. We actually don't know how authoritative the person we are talking to is. In a such environment people will dig your claims if you make clear cut statements, especially you after you claim access to intelligence agency data.

I'd say patchwork_chimera was most likely truthful about his job considering the depth of knowledge he had displayed but as I said earlier, we don't really know. Based on my experience on other forums regarding people who likely had security clerances, his writings were always in "enjoy it while you can" category for me. People with access to classified data do leak without writing classified stuff. They usually end up compiling public data in a such way that they kill all the disinfo and rumors, which is not very different from straight out posting out specs. Most stop posting after they realize that

The people here who demanded proof should have known that it could not have been shared, and thus should have taken the statements into consideration and politely simply agreed to disagree or even just walked away knowing that the impressions could be taken with a bit of salt.

Instead, attacks were made against a person's credibility in bad faith and essentially the discussion was "AcKshUALly"'d into an argument where they could do their best to walk away with the hypothesis of "J-20 being at least equal to F-22" intact even if it came at the cost of alienating one of the most high yield and informative users this forum has seen in half a decade.

Perhaps the worst thing to come out of this, is the demonstrable inability of some people to read the room and read the cues.


Not every hill needs to be contested, not every inch needs to be fought over, good grief.
 

SanWenYu

Captain
Registered Member
The people here who demanded proof should have known that it could not have been shared, and thus should have taken the statements into consideration and politely simply agreed to disagree or even just walked away knowing that the impressions could be taken with a bit of salt.

Instead, attacks were made against a person's credibility in bad faith and essentially the discussion was "AcKshUALly"'d into an argument where they could do their best to walk away with the hypothesis of "J-20 being at least equal to F-22" intact even if it came at the cost of alienating one of the most high yield and informative users this forum has seen in half a decade.

Perhaps the worst thing to come out of this, is the demonstrable inability of some people to read the room and read the cues.


Not every hill needs to be contested, not every inch needs to be fought over, good grief.

While his quit is an unfortunate loss, I take the incident as mistakes of patchwork_chimera himself more than anyone else. Others do not have to cuddle him (but read on). If his possession of certain knowledge cannot be disclosed in public, he should watch his own mouth in places where most go by pseudo names. It is really up to himself to know when to disengage. This saying of "Not every inch needs to be fought over" applies to all, him included.

Even if he does have the authority on certain things because of his professional work, no one has to take every word of him on the face value. Authority does not equal to credibility. People make mistakes. People lie. Had he joined the forum longer and with more quality posts that have been verified by time, he might have been able to build up the credibility to fence off the skepticism from the beginning.

In the age of information war, it is expected that your audience will be skeptical of what you are saying. They will question and challenge you if they do not believe your claims no matter who you are. We have seen too many false claims backed up only by "trust me bro". It's just a natural reaction for people to challenge yet another "trust me bro" when they can. I would not call such challenge as attack.

I would not think that anyone was in this debate with bad faith. We cannot really read someone's mind and judge by his intent. As long as no current forum rule was broken, no one should be punished.

Now, if mods need to value certain members more than the rest and want to have different standards for them, please change the forum rules and make them clear. Then we will know that "trust me/him, bro" is good enough for claims coming from such members of higher value. Mods will also know when to intervene firmly before debates can potentially endanger such valuable members.
 

BMUFL

Junior Member
Registered Member
So, after the recent fiasco in the J-20 thread, we have lost a very knowledgeable and respected member of our community, possibly forever. And from what I understand, said member left because he does not want people soliciting intelligence from him that will cost him his career and land him in a federal prison.

So the question is, is there any plan to clarify existing rules or make new rule to prevent this from happening again in the future?
 
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