Yes that's what I was getting at. What I meant was the issue with transit time; if you ever had to "take a peak" and extend your radar coverage in one direction by moving your AWACS, an airship would take much too long.
AWACS for future chinese carrier
- Thread starter Soyuz
- Start date
Yes that's what I was getting at. What I meant was the issue with transit time; if you ever had to "take a peak" and extend your radar coverage in one direction by moving your AWACS, an airship would take much too long.
this aircraft was originaly designed and a prototype built as the russian answer to the U.S. carrier launched awacs. the version in the pic is a mockup of the original one before the prtotype was built.
this picture has been around since the late 90's and is far from being a new concept.
my first post here
the russian were going to use it for missile tracking out of Kamchtka island in the north pacfic. but then the cold war ended and then the money issue hit and this concept died a quick death and was never built.
the russian now use the Ka28 or 31 choppers now for there radar picket lines until something new comes along using the OKO radar system.
this picture has been around since the late 90's and is far from being a new concept.
my first post here
the russian were going to use it for missile tracking out of Kamchtka island in the north pacfic. but then the cold war ended and then the money issue hit and this concept died a quick death and was never built.
the russian now use the Ka28 or 31 choppers now for there radar picket lines until something new comes along using the OKO radar system.
Great insult - are you accusing him of plagarism?:nono:
no he is not doing so, i am known for mainly posting a broad spectrum of knowledge, but when i see an obvious mistake or no for a fact that some one has done so inadvertently, i will step in and try to straighten out the above poster of said article.
such as this one on the China/Russia aircraft carrier AWACS system.
also for the fact that china and Russia are or have been in negotiations for the sale of the Ka 31 picket helo of which i believe the total of 6 [six] have been mentioned. as these helos can be used off the sovermeny as well as other large destroyer type ships as well, plus the new 071 ships.
So in the near future i would not hold my Breath about this AWACS appearing in the PLAN navy in any shape or form. unless the want to use them from a ground based airport. like Taiwan does with theres.
regards SJ
man overbored
Junior Member
The Indian Navy approached the US about buying the E-2C for use from their converted Gorhskov. They intended to launch it over the ski jump after a take off run using most of the flight deck. An analysis was conducted that concluded a Hawkeye could not make it off the deck unless fuel was reduced such that the aircraft's usual five hour loiter time was reduced to one hour. The aircraft would have no margin for an engine failure on take off either, unlike a cat shot from a Nimitz where a Hawkeye would still fly after loosing an engine during the cat shot. Ultimately India chose not to buy E-2's.
Friends,
AWACS is very important in detecting any incoming fighter or bomber. I have several questions:
1. What is the maximum altitude of AWACS operation? And what is the maximum altitude of the modern fighter such F-22, F-16?
2. What is the maximum altitude of such fighters' missiles?
3. What is the self-defense equipment of the AWACS?
The ultimate question is: Is AWACS vulnerable to fighters/bombers? And what does the PLAAF do to cover this weak point?
These are a lot of questions, and I would like to thank you for taking the time educate me about the basics of AWACS and its relationship with fighters/bombers.
AWACS is very important in detecting any incoming fighter or bomber. I have several questions:
1. What is the maximum altitude of AWACS operation? And what is the maximum altitude of the modern fighter such F-22, F-16?
2. What is the maximum altitude of such fighters' missiles?
3. What is the self-defense equipment of the AWACS?
The ultimate question is: Is AWACS vulnerable to fighters/bombers? And what does the PLAAF do to cover this weak point?
These are a lot of questions, and I would like to thank you for taking the time educate me about the basics of AWACS and its relationship with fighters/bombers.
man overbored
Junior Member
An AWACS is generally defenseless, relying on the fighters it helps control to protect it from attack. The actual radar horizon of the E-2 for example is highly classified but is at least 300nm and probably more. In the USN, the E-2 is data linked to the surface force and both share an integrated battle space picture. Every unit sees a combined picture generated from all the sensors in the strike group. Control of the fighters is coordinated with surface commanders. The defensive anti-air commander is not necessarily on the CV but more likely on a CG equipped with Aegis ( every CG now ). The E-2 does not act alone vectoring fighters to threats. There is a lot of computer power going on here as well to identify and prioritize threats. The same is true in the cockpit as most modern fire control radars will prioritize threats for the pilot or weapons officer to select.
Maximum altitude of most missiles depends on the altitude of the launch platform. Actual rocket burn lasts seconds, seldom longer. If a missile has to climb significantly or dive significantly this takes away from it's horizontal range. You have to think in three dimensions. Also a fighter on the deck can be given targeting data from a higher altitude asset with a longer radar horizon, or from a surface unit that is further out in the strike group. These aircraft seldome exceed 40,000 feet regardless of what the spec sheet says about their maximum altitude. What happens at high altitude is that your stall speed begins to approach your cruise speed, and the range of angle of attack the aircraft is capable of diminishes. Dogfighting at 40,000 feet is a lot more difficult due to basic aerodynamic limitations. Engine also do not tolerate high AoA at high speeds and altitudes.
Typically today a CV's escorts are well over the horizon from the CV due to the great range of modern weapons and sensors. It is nothing like WWII with the escorts grouped tightly around the "bird farm". This expands the strike group's radar horizon and increases the distance from the carrier that these ships may begin to engage incoming aircraft and missiles. If you thing about each ship having a hemisphere over it representing the range of it's weapons, you arrange these around the carrier so that they all overlap near the carrier providing long range air and ASW defenses. The Hummer sits above all of this.
Fighters will defend that AWACS. Lets face it, the Hummer is an aerodynamic slug. It has about a zero chance to protect itself. It would require a very long range missile system, and this implies you would need to devote space and weight to the necessary radars, fire control computers and install launch rails. This would greatly detract from the payload available for the Hummer's primary job of being an AWACS. Mounting something like a Sidewinder would be futile, there is no possilbe way a Hummer could maneuver sufficiently to get a shot off. For AIM-9X for example to make anything but a frontal shot ( implying the Hummer was lined up on the fighter, ha, good luck ! ) you need helmet mounted sights with all the ancillary stuff in the cockpit to track the pilot's head movements. The limited visibility from a Hummer's cockpit makes this a fantasy. You would need to have a bubble canopy and still the rotodome and those two big engines would limit where such a pilot could see. For many types of engagements even older 'Winders require the seeker to be slaved to the aircraft's intercept radar to achieve lock. No IR or IIR sensor can detect anything much beyond ten miles. This is a basic limitation of all such seekers. If something hostile makes it within ten miles of the Hummer the crew might as well bail before they are blown up cuz it will be over in a few seconds. It is pure fantasy for a Hummer to launch missiles to defend itself. Nope, the Hummer or any AWACS is completely reliant on other fighters for it's self defense, or from the missiles of the surface units in the strike group.
Maximum altitude of most missiles depends on the altitude of the launch platform. Actual rocket burn lasts seconds, seldom longer. If a missile has to climb significantly or dive significantly this takes away from it's horizontal range. You have to think in three dimensions. Also a fighter on the deck can be given targeting data from a higher altitude asset with a longer radar horizon, or from a surface unit that is further out in the strike group. These aircraft seldome exceed 40,000 feet regardless of what the spec sheet says about their maximum altitude. What happens at high altitude is that your stall speed begins to approach your cruise speed, and the range of angle of attack the aircraft is capable of diminishes. Dogfighting at 40,000 feet is a lot more difficult due to basic aerodynamic limitations. Engine also do not tolerate high AoA at high speeds and altitudes.
Typically today a CV's escorts are well over the horizon from the CV due to the great range of modern weapons and sensors. It is nothing like WWII with the escorts grouped tightly around the "bird farm". This expands the strike group's radar horizon and increases the distance from the carrier that these ships may begin to engage incoming aircraft and missiles. If you thing about each ship having a hemisphere over it representing the range of it's weapons, you arrange these around the carrier so that they all overlap near the carrier providing long range air and ASW defenses. The Hummer sits above all of this.
Fighters will defend that AWACS. Lets face it, the Hummer is an aerodynamic slug. It has about a zero chance to protect itself. It would require a very long range missile system, and this implies you would need to devote space and weight to the necessary radars, fire control computers and install launch rails. This would greatly detract from the payload available for the Hummer's primary job of being an AWACS. Mounting something like a Sidewinder would be futile, there is no possilbe way a Hummer could maneuver sufficiently to get a shot off. For AIM-9X for example to make anything but a frontal shot ( implying the Hummer was lined up on the fighter, ha, good luck ! ) you need helmet mounted sights with all the ancillary stuff in the cockpit to track the pilot's head movements. The limited visibility from a Hummer's cockpit makes this a fantasy. You would need to have a bubble canopy and still the rotodome and those two big engines would limit where such a pilot could see. For many types of engagements even older 'Winders require the seeker to be slaved to the aircraft's intercept radar to achieve lock. No IR or IIR sensor can detect anything much beyond ten miles. This is a basic limitation of all such seekers. If something hostile makes it within ten miles of the Hummer the crew might as well bail before they are blown up cuz it will be over in a few seconds. It is pure fantasy for a Hummer to launch missiles to defend itself. Nope, the Hummer or any AWACS is completely reliant on other fighters for it's self defense, or from the missiles of the surface units in the strike group.
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AWACS aren't armed with weapons for offensive purposes its only got defensive counter measures (chaffs, flares, decoys, jammers, etc...). Survival of AWACS are the escort fighters responsibility in protecting their bird. No matter how high your AWACS will be an AAM can strike it. That is unless a dumb pilot shoots way out of its AAM range and looses fuel by the time it gets to the AWACS. AWACS can't manuver much so they can't do what fighters do. That is to manuver and make the AAM follow it, draining its fuel until it runs out. Remember though AWACS don't need to operate within its enemy range of engagment they have a large search radius so the AWACS can close enough but still beyond the fighters or G2A enegagment. They can operate outside their enemys area of dominance. AWACS are basically top heavey fat bird floating in the air with guards around it.