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Lethe

Captain
Australia should have just bought the Japanese submarines back then. They fit all the requirements.
Another possible alternative today would be the latest South Korean KS-III submarines.

Tony Abbott was a thoroughly destructive force in Australian politics, but he very much favoured a Japanese solution for Australia's next-generation submarine program, and indeed his instincts were probably correct in this instance, as the closest thing to a proven, "off-the-shelf" solution available. Which is not say that it would've been very close to an off-the-shelf acquisition. We specified from the outset that the boat had to use the American AN/BSY-1 combat system and the Mk. 48 ADCAP torpedo, for example. We also specified a pumpjet propulsor despite those systems being much less efficient than traditional screws at low speeds and therefore all but unheard of in the world of SSKs. Really, if you think of Australia as a young kid desperately seeking to emulate his cool older bro, a lot of otherwise inexplicable decisions suddenly fall into place.
 
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broadsword

Brigadier
Tony Abbott was a thoroughly destructive force in Australian politics, but he very much favoured a Japanese solution for Australia's next-generation submarine program, and indeed his instincts were probably correct in this instance, as the closest thing to a proven, "off-the-shelf" solution available. Which is not say that it would've been very close to an off-the-shelf acquisition. We specified from the outset that the boat had to use the American AN/BSY-1 combat system and the Mk. 48 ADCAP torpedo, for example. We also specified a pumpjet propulsor despite those systems being much less efficient than traditional screws at low speeds and therefore all but unheard of in the world of SSKs. Really, if you think of Australia as a young kid desperately seeking to emulate his cool older bro, a lot of otherwise inexplicable decisions suddenly fall into place.

Did the Collin's class submarines' troubles affect their decision in the procurement?
 

Chevalier

Captain
Registered Member
Tony Abbott was a thoroughly destructive force in Australian politics, but he very much favoured a Japanese solution for Australia's next-generation submarine program, and indeed his instincts were probably correct in this instance, as the closest thing to a proven, "off-the-shelf" solution available. Which is not say that it would've been very close to an off-the-shelf acquisition. We specified from the outset that the boat had to use the American AN/BSY-1 combat system and the Mk. 48 ADCAP torpedo, for example. We also specified a pumpjet propulsor despite those systems being much less efficient than traditional screws at low speeds and therefore all but unheard of in the world of SSKs. Really, if you think of Australia as a young kid desperately seeking to emulate his cool older bro, a lot of otherwise inexplicable decisions suddenly fall into place.
That's more a reflection of the Australian Elite and their slavish devotion to the American hegemony; previous Australian leaders like Malcolm Fraser and Gough Whitlam were more independent and not corrupted by American agents. That $400bln submarine deal along with gifting Western Australian bases to nuclear power american warships is characteristic of Australia functioning more as an extension of Anglo American hegemony (epitomised by the Five Eyes), rather than as an independent nation state. When you consider the corrupt pork barreling nature of American arms procurement, that $400bln is simply a massive display of australian peasants paying tribute, homage, grain and gold to their feudal lords in Washington.

 

Lethe

Captain
Did the Collin's class submarines' troubles affect their decision in the procurement?

Collins was a collaboration with Swedish shipbuilder Kockums, derived from but much larger than the submarines they had built for the Swedish Navy. The process of constructing the Collins-class boats in Australia, correcting deficiencies that were identified and bringing them to full operational status was both more protracted and expensive than anticipated, and it is fair to say that the relationship with Kockums was strained at times. Kockums did offer a larger variant of their new A26 submarine design in the early stages of the Collins-replacement program, but it was not shortlisted for detailed evaluation, which probably reflects our dissatisfaction with the Collins experience.
 
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TK3600

Major
Registered Member
Z-20 doesn't even count as a mature platform today, let alone back in 2004 when the first NH90s were ordered.

Mi-17 would've been an interesting left-field contender.
I was refering to subs, things in general. But yes, Russian heli also counts. NH90 itself isn't bad though, not example of bad purchase. It was done in days things not stupidly expensive.
 

mankyle

New Member
Registered Member
I was refering to subs, things in general. But yes, Russian heli also counts. NH90 itself isn't bad though, not example of bad purchase. It was done in days things not stupidly expensive.
The main problem of the Tapian was how maintenance and spare parts inventory was managed. I saw an article that stated that spares were really overpriced.
 

Lethe

Captain
Kim Beazley, a former Defence Minister (1984-1990), leader of the Australian Labor Party (1996-2001) and Australian ambassador to the United States (2010-2016), has penned a
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for ASPI about the decline of Australia's surface combatant inventory:

The [1987] white paper called for a force of three guided missile destroyers (DDGs) and six guided missile frigates (FFGs). With them, though still to be selected, were eight Anzac class frigates which entered service between 1994 and 2005. That made a force of 17 surface combatants.

This was not an ad hoc decision. It was a calculation of the force needed to work in the various points of entry through the archipelago to Australia’s north. Studies suggested we needed 20 ships but there was not the money. It was hoped New Zealand would acquire four frigates and that might fill the gap. Critically, as the white paper mentioned repeatedly, the whole force structure was not Cold War related. It was about the character of our region in the medium term. The paper argued that we should relieve the US of the burden of interposing its own forces in the defence of our approaches. Our maritime defence was central to that self-reliance.

Of the 17 vessels planned for those chokepoints, the subsequent 30 years saw the three DDGs and then the six FFGs retired. The Navy’s three Hobart class air warfare destroyers (AWDs) were to replace the three DDGs. Instead, the three AWDs replace the six FFGs as well, nine ships in all. If we built six more AWDs, experience and efficiencies would make them relatively cheap, and our force would look quite formidable. Some could be optimised for anti-submarine warfare which would mean that the current defence minister, who bears no responsibility for any of this, would not be faced with his most troubling decision, the future of the Hunter Class frigate program.

The Australian has reported that consideration is being given to withdrawing HMAS Anzac and two of its sisters from the order of battle. This would reducing costs and help relieve chronic crew shortages for the remainder of the fleet. Instead of 17 ships, we would have eight.

A few thoughts:

This is the first I have heard of consideration being given to early retirement of any of the ANZAC frigates. If this were to occur it would restore something like the original retirement schedule, which had HMAS Anzac retiring in ~2025 at around thirty years of age. This original schedule was discarded around 2018 and a life-extension program approved instead in the context of the selection of the Hunter-class frigate to serve as their ultimate replacements. If an "early" retirement of one or more of these ships were to now occur, this saga of life-extensions owing to a failure to acquire timely replacements, followed by cancellation of that life-extension program some ~6 years later owing (one assumes) to cost and personnel challenges, leading to a reduction in the fleet inventory at the same time the national security establishment is hyperventilating about these being the darkest days since WW2, etc. would demonstrate a level of ongoing incompetence that would be shocking if we had not already become numbed to such.

Kim Beazley was Defence Minister at the time the 1987 Defence White Paper that he references was issued. One of the major contributing authors to that paper is a figure that some here may be familiar with, perhaps owing to my having linked to his contributions on several occasions: Hugh White. These two persons are therefore almost certainly known to each other and acquainted in the exchange of ideas. White has long advocated a major expansion in Australia's submarine capabilities (I believe he suggests a force of 24 SSKs), this coming partly at the expense of investment in surface combatants. When the then-Labor government first initiated the Collins-replacement program, it committed to double the submarine inventory from the six units of the Collins-class (and six units of the Oberon-class before them) to 12 SSKs, reflecting the ongoing salience of that particular school of thought. As we all know this has now been revised to "at least eight" nuclear-powered submarines.

Beazley correctly identifies that the failure to acquire more than three Hobart AWDs was a major blunder. What he does not explicitly note is that the option in the original contract to acquire a fourth AWD expired under a Labor government, at a time when defence outlays as a proportion of GDP hit record lows. Clearly, that AWD option should've been taken up and a new contract engaged to extend production to at least six ships. The Liberal Party has been in power here for most of the period that defines out present and near-future capabilities (1996-2007, 2013-2022) and is responsible for most of the worst decisions that have been taken, nonetheless the record of failure is a bipartisan one, in large part of course because both parties are fundamentally drinking from the same ideological and institutional wells.
 
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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
If they want to change the design the cost of the Hunter frigate will spike even further. They will spend more and have less ships.
 
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